Alcohol Sales

[Tango125INF11b]

So when I went through my CPL class, our county prosecutor came in and went over the laws and such for CC AND OC. I noticed a lot of people here were going on about "you can't go anywhere that sells alcohol without a CPL". Our CP in the class said that you just can't go anywhere that sells alcohol by the glass ie a pub or bar. Someone please elaborate.

[Bronson]

There is often confusion on this issue.  It stems from people mixing up the restrictions from two completely separate laws.

First is MCL 750.234d which states:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. (this works out to be any places licensed to sell alcohol in any capacity)

These are what we usually call the Open Carry Pistol Free Zones.  Later in the law are several exceptions, most notably the one that exempts anyone licensed to carry a concealed pistol.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

Remember that this is only dealing with general possession of a firearm NOT concealed carry.  There is a separate law that lays out the restrictions on concealed carry...

MCL 28.425o  states:

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

There is an exemption in this law for the parking lots of CC pistol free zones BUT if you go back and read the first law there is NO parking lot exemption for the OC pistol free zones.  So you cannot possess a firearm anywhere on the property of the places listed in the OC pistol free zone list UNLESS you meet one of the exemptions, like having a CPL.

Bronson

[emt805]

rookie question, would a strip joint be considered a bar? Would their primary source of income be from "lap dances" or would it be  from liquor by the glass?

[Tango125INF11b]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Bronson. I was indeed, very confused about that for the last few days.

[Tango125INF11b]

I know that only topless bars can sell alcohol in MI. The bottom must have some kid of cover. Bottomless bars in MI may not sell alcohol because of health issues.

[augustus74]

There is often confusion on this issue.  It stems from people mixing up the restrictions from two completely separate laws.

First is MCL 750.234d which states:

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. (this works out to be any places licensed to sell alcohol in any capacity)

These are what we usually call the Open Carry Pistol Free Zones.  Later in the law are several exceptions, most notably the one that exempts anyone licensed to carry a concealed pistol.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

Remember that this is only dealing with general possession of a firearm NOT concealed carry.  There is a separate law that lays out the restrictions on concealed carry...

MCL 28.425o  states:

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

There is an exemption in this law for the parking lots of CC pistol free zones BUT if you go back and read the first law there is NO parking lot exemption for the OC pistol free zones.  So you cannot possess a firearm anywhere on the property of the places listed in the OC pistol free zone list UNLESS you meet one of the exemptions, like having a CPL.

Bronson

So does this mean that I can't conceal carry in a restaurant like Ruby Tuesday's?

I always thought that I could.

[augustus74]

So does this mean that I can't conceal carry in a restaurant like Ruby Tuesday's?

I always thought that I could.

Actually...I think I just figured it out...

I have a CPL, so I can Open carry in a Bar, but can't conceal carry there.

For a bar/restaurant, I can CC or OC....

Does that sound right?

[Bronson]

[Actually...I think I just figured it out...

I have a CPL, so I can Open carry in a Bar, but can't conceal carry there. 

Correct.  Also, a person without a CPL may also open carry in an establishment licensed to sell alcohol with the express permission of the owner or agent of the owner.  I'd get it in writing.  See section 2d of MCL 750.234d

For a bar/restaurant, I can CC or OC....

Does that sound right?   

Correct, assuming the establishment does NOT derive the majority of it's income from the sale of alcohol to be consumed on the premises.  If it does derive the majority of it's income from alchohol you can only OC.

Bronson

[BTAvery]

So if I go to walmart not having a CPL I can OC (walmart that sells alcohol).

[FatboyCykes]

So if I go to walmart not having a CPL I can OC (walmart that sells alcohol).

No, you must be a licensed CPL holder in order to OC anywhere that sells alcohol.

[autosurgeon]

So if I go to walmart not having a CPL I can OC (walmart that sells alcohol).

No, you must be a licensed CPL holder in order to OC anywhere that IS LICENCED TO SELL alcohol WHETHER THEY ARE CURRENTLY SELLING OR NOT.

note caps!

[FatboyCykes]

So if I go to walmart not having a CPL I can OC (walmart that sells alcohol).

No, you must be a licensed CPL holder in order to OC anywhere that IS LICENCED TO SELL alcohol WHETHER THEY ARE CURRENTLY SELLING OR NOT.

note caps!

Thank you.

[autosurgeon]

Yeah I was posting from my phone and it is a pain to change font or color... so I just used caps

[EM87]

rookie question, would a strip joint be considered a bar? Would their primary source of income be from "lap dances" or would it be  from liquor by the glass?

It depends- how much of their business is from alcohol sales?  I'd bet that alcohol sales outweighs admission.  I don't know if the establishment gets a cut of the 'dances' that the strippers do, so I wouldn't count that towards revenue in terms of the law.  Personally I wouldn't CC there because I feel it would be a bar, at least the ones around my city.

[BTAvery]

Now i'm all confused I thought the law was if it sells alcohol and it makes the majority of its profit from that you can't OC without CPL. But if it sells alcohol and doesn't get the majority of its money from alcohol sales then you can OC without CPL. Sorry if this doesn't make sense completely asleep writing this.

[fozzy71]

Now i'm all confused I thought the law was if it sells alcohol and it makes the majority of its profit from that you can't OC without CPL. But if it sells alcohol and doesn't get the majority of its money from alcohol sales then you can OC without CPL. Sorry if this doesn't make sense completely asleep writing this.

You were confused to begin with.  There are 2 laws, one deals with firearms carry (non-CPL) and one deals with concealed pistol carry (CPL holder)

If you do not have a CPL, do not step foot on property of a place with a liquor license.

If you have a CPL you can CC if they dont make the majority of sales from alcohol, but if they make the majority from alcohol you need to OC w/ a CPL.

No cites, cuz I am lazy and drinking.

[BTAvery]

gotcha thank you didn't think about that it was two different laws.

[fozzy71]

....
No cites, cuz I am lazy and drinking.

Funny, as I dont drink a lot, but this thread is about alcohol. 

[Bronson]

Now i'm all confused I thought the law was if it sells alcohol and it makes the majority of its profit from that you can't OC without CPL. But if it sells alcohol and doesn't get the majority of its money from alcohol sales then you can OC without CPL. Sorry if this doesn't make sense completely asleep writing this.

Without CPL no carry on premises of any establishment licensed to sell alcohol in any capacity...period.

With CPL....

majority of income from sale of alcohol to be consumed on premises = OC only, CC not allowed.

or

majority of income NOT from sale of alcohol to be consumed on premise = CC or OC allowed.

Bronson

[13mile9]

There is often confusion on this issue.  It stems from people mixing up the restrictions from two completely separate laws.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. (this works out to be any places licensed to sell alcohol in any capacity)

Question:  Does this really work out to be "any" business that sells alcohol?  When this was written, did we have such places as Meijer, Sams, Costco, Walmart, CVS, etc...that sells alcohol.  I.E. - was the original intent of this law specifically pointed/intended for toward taverns/pubs (consumption) areas;  and these other (previous) types business have come along after the fact? 
Or, due to the lack of specific clarification in MCL 750.234d, (as we have in MCL 28.425o ) it naturally includes your local grocery store, Costco, 7-11, etc....?   

Is there an official written opinion on this that I have read somewhere, etc..?

Just curious.