Author Topic: Michigan Senate to move quickly on revised concealed gun bill after Snyder veto  (Read 11693 times)

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Offline Xpiatio

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http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2015/01/michigan_senate_to_move_quickl.html

A revised plan to speed up the process for obtaining a concealed pistol permit in Michigan could speed through the state Senate in coming weeks.

Senate Majority Leader Arlan Meekhof, R-West Olive, said Tuesday that the chamber plans to “move pretty quickly” on revised legislation after Gov. Rick Snyder vetoed a previous version earlier this month.

Offline jgillmanjr

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Seriously - it was a 15 minutes of slam, bam, thank you ma'am and SB 34 w/ amendment was reported out.
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Offline LD

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And this is still a bad bill for gun owners.
We give up far more then we gain.

Why do we need to raise the cost of a CPL?
Why do we need to make the training cert. unusable after you get your first cpl?
Why do we need mandatory fines & suspensions for not notifying "immediately?
Why do we still have that stupid non productive requirement?
And on & on & on.........

Offline CV67PAT

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Seriously - it was a 15 minutes of slam, bam, thank you ma'am and SB 34 w/ amendment was reported out.
That's great. Fast action leaves plenty of time to stall it into the next lame duck session.
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Offline linux203

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We give up far more then we gain.

Why do we need to raise the cost of a CPL?
Why do we need to make the training cert. unusable after you get your first cpl?
Why do we need mandatory fines & suspensions for not notifying "immediately?
Why do we still have that stupid non productive requirement?
And on & on & on.........

I'll pay $15 so the requirements to obtain a CPL is the same for me and the poor saps that are stuck in Macomb and Kent counties.  Oh, and by the time I'm up for renewal, online renewal will be available.  With HB5500 dying in committee, so many aspects of the current law is unenforceable at the county level.

You may believe ground is lost.  I see what other gun owners are gaining.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline bigt8261

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And this is still a bad bill for gun owners.
We give up far more then we gain.

Why do we need to raise the cost of a CPL?
Why do we need to make the training cert. unusable after you get your first cpl?
Why do we need mandatory fines & suspensions for not notifying "immediately?
Why do we still have that stupid non productive requirement?
And on & on & on.........

- For most people, obtaining or renewing a CPL will be cheaper overall. That being said, yes the MSP will be getting more money than they did before.
- The Clerks wanted as little discretion as possible and asked for a statutory limit. Keep in mind, many County Clerks are applying their own arbitrary limit. The 5yr expiration combined with the added 1yr window to renew your CPL means it should be about 6+ years before you would need to get a new cert, and that would only need to happen if you let your CPL expire. Certs are not required for renewals.
- The mandatory fines made their way in when the suspension process was moved to the clerks in a version of the bill that was never made public. MOC is working on trying to get the mandated penalties removed.
- Non-productive requirement?

Offline LD

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- For most people, obtaining or renewing a CPL will be cheaper overall. That being said, yes the MSP will be getting more money than they did before.
How can a raise in fee's be considered cheaper? How can requiring a new class before renewal because you were out of the state for a brief time when your CPL expired be cheaper? I really would like to see how you think this is cheaper and don't give me that MCRGO BS, we all know those numbers are made up. 
- The Clerks wanted as little discretion as possible and asked for a statutory limit. Keep in mind, many County Clerks are applying their own arbitrary limit. We already have it in the LAW what the limits are and who can change them. If the counties are not obeying the law now, what makes you think they will in the future?The 5yr expiration combined with the added 1yr window to renew your CPL means it should be about 6+ years before you would need to get a new cert,No, your cert expires in 5 years. While it is true if you don't let your CPL expire, you never (until the next improvement in our CPL law) need it again. BUT make NO mistake, IT WILL EXPIRE IN 5 YEARS. and that would only need to happen if you let your CPL expire. Certs are not required for renewals.
- The mandatory fines made their way in when the suspension process was moved to the clerks in a version of the bill that was never made public. MOC is working on trying to get the mandated penalties removed.
- Non-productive requirement? The notify requirement is "non-productive". 44 other states get by without it & they don't have dead officers littering the streets. The only thing it does is give LEO's something else to charge you with. One more avenue to revoking your right to carry. It serves no purpose.
No matter how you look at it, ALL gun owners loose while some (very few) have a temporary one time gain.

Offline bigt8261

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Quote
How can a raise in fee's be considered cheaper? How can requiring a new class before renewal because you were out of the state for a brief time when your CPL expired be cheaper? I really would like to see how you think this is cheaper and don't give me that MCRGO BS, we all know those numbers are made up.

The reduced fee of $100 + the now (will be) mandatory fee for fingerprints will equal an increase of $10. However, photos will no longer be required as well as the Clerk will be mandated to mail you your license, saving you time and gas to do those things. All other extraneous fees will be eliminated as well. I understand this won't reduce the overall cost for everyone, but it should for most. Especially once the online stuff kicks in.

Quote
We already have it in the LAW what the limits are and who can change them. If the counties are not obeying the law now, what makes you think they will in the future?

There is nothing currently in statute about when certs expire. For better or worse, the 5yr expiration leaves no leeway for interpretation which is what the Clerks wanted.

Quote
No, your cert expires in 5 years. While it is true if you don't let your CPL expire, you never (until the next improvement in our CPL law) need it again. BUT make NO mistake, IT WILL EXPIRE IN 5 YEARS

I said it would be about 6+ years before you would need a new cert. This is true. I also said nothing to the contrary in terms of when the cert would expire.

Quote
The notify requirement is "non-productive". 44 other states get by without it & they don't have dead officers littering the streets. The only thing it does is give LEO's something else to charge you with. One more avenue to revoking your right to carry. It serves no purpose.

That's fine, and I agree immediate notification needs to be done away with, but that is outside of the scope of this bill. In fact, the original SB 789 eliminated immediate notification, but that was taken out because the MSP argued it was outside of "process reform". The MSP also had to give up something they were asking for, for the same reason.

Look, I'm not trying to sell the bill to you, I'm trying to clear up what the bill does and why it's doing it. You asked a bunch of why and what questions and I answered them.

Offline gryphon

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What were the MSP asking for?

Offline linux203

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No matter how you look at it, ALL gun owners loose while some (very few) have a temporary one time gain.

I think the number of gun owners that will encounter the certificate expiration is very low. 

Between 7/1/2012 and 6/30/2013 (2013-2014 isn't posted), 8,541 people appeared before the Macomb county gun board.  A gun board that sees failure to appear as grounds for denial.  In Kent county, 3,511 people had to deal with intentional delays and made up requirements.  Gun boards should have been 100% irrelevant in 2001, but some tried to cling to the power.

To the person who waits 11 years between the CPL class and the CPL application, I say "What did you expect?"  To the Macomb and Kent county gun boards, I say "Go pound sand."
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline LD

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The reduced fee of $100 + the now (will be) mandatory fee for fingerprints will equal an increase of $10. However, photos will no longer be required as well as the Clerk will be mandated to mail you your license, saving you time and gas to do those things. All other extraneous fees will be eliminated as well. I understand this won't reduce the overall cost for everyone, but it should for most. Especially once the online stuff kicks in.
If clerks are charging illegal fees then they should be prosecuted. Isn't that the job of our county prosecutors?
There is nothing currently in statute about when certs expire. For better or worse, the 5yr expiration leaves no leeway for interpretation which is what the Clerks wanted.
There is nothing about cert expiration because they don't currently expire. Add to that that we have preemption and ONLY the STATE can make gun laws & I don't see a problem. When I was confronted with the gun board & clerk telling me I needed another class, I just had them read the law. Problem solved.
I said it would be about 6+ years before you would need a new cert. This is true. I also said nothing to the contrary in terms of when the cert would expire.
It expires in 5 years if it isn't used for some reason. I don't have to retake drivers training if I let my drivers license lapse.
That's fine, and I agree immediate notification needs to be done away with, but that is outside of the scope of this bill. In fact, the original SB 789 eliminated immediate notification, but that was taken out because the MSP argued it was outside of "process reform". The MSP also had to give up something they were asking for, for the same reason.
I would also be interested in what the MSP had to "give up".
Look, I'm not trying to sell the bill to you, I'm trying to clear up what the bill does and why it's doing it. You asked a bunch of why and what questions and I answered them.
And I appreciate you answering. I just don't view it as a win when we give up more then we gain with every "pro gun" bill that goes to the governors desk.

Offline gryphon

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Well, LD, it's possible Snyder will find a reason to veto it even with the PPO stuff gone.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Didn't last year's version report out of committee swiftly, with committee recommendation for immediate passage?
I''d just like to see one pass swiftly enough that there's still time to override any veto before the legislative session closes.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline bigt8261

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Again, I'm not trying to sell the bill to you.

I honestly don't remember what the MSP gave up. There was a lot of back 'n forth between bill versions.

Offline CV67PAT

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Didn't last year's version report out of committee swiftly, with committee recommendation for immediate passage?
I''d just like to see one pass swiftly enough that there's still time to override any veto before the legislative session closes.
That ain't ever going to happen with the sitting clown being the head of the ruling jester party.
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Offline part deux

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That ain't ever going to happen with the sitting clown being the head of the ruling jester party.
How do you really feel?

I'm mixed on this bill.  I want constitutional carry as most carriers do.  I see this is a incremental (slight) improvement, which is better than nothing.  It has some negatives, but most people will not be impacted by the negatives.

Offline TheQ

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How do you really feel?

I'm mixed on this bill.  I want constitutional carry as most carriers do.  I see this is a incremental (slight) improvement, which is better than nothing.  It has some negatives, but most people will not be impacted by the negatives.

How will most ppl NOT be impacted by a mandatory $10 fee increase?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline mosnar87

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When the online renewal takes affect, I for one will probably be saving money. No more round trip from South Haven to Paw Paw, plus I wont have to spend time screwing around in the courthouse's GFV.
"I don't want to be someone that successfully defends himself with a pistol.  I want to be someone that never has to defend himself with a pistol."
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Offline CitizensHaveRights

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When the online renewal takes affect, I for one will probably be saving money. No more round trip from South Haven to Paw Paw, plus I wont have to spend time screwing around in the courthouse's GFV.

That last part is the major one for me. Getting herded through cattle chutes makes me feel like I'm standing in line for luxury boxcar seating to Treblinka. I haven't voted to re-elect a judge at any level since the Supremes came up with that incredibly expensive solution to a nonexistent problem and all the local and appeals judges gleefully jumped on the bandwagon. If the black robed douchebags think that lowly of me, why would I want my tax dollars going towards their paychecks?
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline part deux

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How will most ppl NOT be impacted by a mandatory $10 fee increase?
$10 increase impacts everybody...

However, avoided long lines for renewal in Wayne county is worth it.  Avoiding gun board in Macomb county will be worth to those residents.

Everybody will benefit from not needing to get a separate photograph.