Author Topic: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar  (Read 20095 times)

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Offline TheQ

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Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« on: July 30, 2010, 12:04:13 AM »
lil_freak_66, his girlfriend, and I were just asked to leave (11:10 PM on 7/29).  We complied, of course.  More details to come.



**EDIT**(made by lil freak)

corporate was contacted,the employee was in the wrong,we were invited back to taco bell for a free meal,we had no problems the 2nd time around,as well as all of our additional trips there since.

---------------------------------------------
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 06:11:02 PM by lil_freak_66 »
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2010, 12:13:27 AM »
lil_freak_66 first places his order for his girlfriend and himself.  The cashier could see that we were openly armed.  She took our orders happily and we paid.  We found a table while we awaited our order.  freak's order came up, he picked his up, and went to use the restroom.  Just before freak finished in the rest room my order came up to the counter for pickup.  As I walked up a young Latino employee at the counter saw my firearm.  The following transpired:

Him: you a cop?
Me: nope.
Counter guy: you can't have that in here?
Me: <motioned down to my sidearm with my head and looked a bit puzzled>
Counter guy: yeah, you'll have to leave.

At this time freak emerged from the restroom.

Me (to freak): we gotta leave
Him: huh?
Counter guy: <mutters something about concealed> (maybe: it has to be concealed? maybe: you can't have it concealed?)
Me: he (motioning to employee) says we have to leave.
freak's girlfriend: <concurred with me>

freak made a few remarks I'll let him fill in as we quickly walked out the door as we had apparently outstayed our welcome.

We agreed to meet down the road at Meijers to consume our food Taco Bell so kindly allowed us to order and pay for before asking us to leave.

Sadly, it all happened so quickly I didn't have time to activate my iPhone recorder.

I am sending this note to Taco Bell via the website:
Quote from: MyEmail
Hello,

I was wondering about your firearm carry policy by customers in stores.  My compadre and I were just asked (by a latino gentlemen at work on shift) to leave said store for openly carrying our sidearms in the store.  Are we not welcome in your stores while legally carrying for our own protection? If so, we'll plan to take our late night business elsewhere.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2010, 12:17:21 AM »
Carrying: Springfield XDm 9mm 4.5
Loaded with: 19 rounds of Remington Golden Saber JHP
Also carrying (not loaded): 19 rounds of PMC FMJ

« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 02:20:57 PM by lil_freak_66 »
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2010, 01:21:15 AM »
hmmm I OC in Taco Bells all the time... no issues

For next time ask to speak with that manager... I would not let counter help run me off that easy... however not too bad for your first time.

Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline Bronson

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2010, 03:19:49 AM »
Why did you not request a manager and demand your money back?

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2010, 03:26:56 AM »
Also ask lil how I handled the manager at the Rent A Center... I just kept allaying his fears and after a bit he calmed down and decided he wanted our money more than he wanted us to leave. Also we ended up educating all the employees in the store that day.

I know it is hectic the first time you  get asked to leave but it won't be the last and if you remain calm and friendly you will find that many times you can defuse the situation and turn it into a learning experience!
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline emt805

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2010, 03:38:05 AM »
Why did you not request a manager and demand your money back?

Bronson

That was my thought as well, maybe not demand my money back as I would not want to seem aggressive to someone who is already mumbling about it needing to be cc.

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2010, 04:17:08 PM »
My remarks to the employee consisted of,
"are you sure you are following corporate policy?"

"i believe you are violating corporate policy,you should check it out first"

Either way,we didnt hesitate as soon as i made my remarks while heading out the door and just left.

Also,another employee in there cleaning the floors said "she didnt know anything about that" toward the problematic employee,probably referring to his authority and reasoning to ask us to leave.

Email to corporate with a complaint and a request for corporate policy sent.Called manager,waiting on call back.

My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 11:53:49 AM »
Recieved a call from a woman that says she is the one running this particular taco bell,im not sure if she is store manager,franchise owner or what...
She assured me that taco bell is to follow state law in regards to customer firearm possesion and that the employees at this store will have the firearm laws of michigan discussed with them so that it should not happen again.
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline Agent1

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2010, 02:23:04 PM »
V
"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, arn't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't."
 John Wayne (The Shootist.)

Offline FatboyCykes

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 03:02:23 PM »
Recieved a call from a woman that says she is the one running this particular taco bell,im not sure if she is store manager,franchise owner or what...
She assured me that taco bell is to follow state law in regards to customer firearm possesion and that the employees at this store will have the firearm laws of michigan discussed with them so that it should not happen again.

And offered to replace your meal? :P

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 06:24:57 PM »
she didnt say replace,she said she'd cover a meal for the both of us however,I dont know how id go about getting it though,perhaps me and TheQ will call the manager and ask how to go about getting that though...get it sometime during the week.
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline T Vance

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2010, 10:22:48 PM »
We agreed to meet down the road at Meijers to consume our food Taco Bell so kindly allowed us to order and pay for before asking us to leave.

[/quote]

I hope you have your CPL "TheQ". Having a firearm in the parking lot of any establishment that has a license for the sale of alcohol without having a CPL is a "no no". Every Meijer I have been to has said license. Just thought you should know.

Offline TheQ

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2010, 10:36:27 PM »
I hope you have your CPL "TheQ". Having a firearm in the parking lot of any establishment that has a license for the sale of alcohol without having a CPL is a "no no". Every Meijer I have been to has said license. Just thought you should know.

Mine was locked and stowed in the trunk while we ate.

However, I thought the law only pertained to the enclosed areas of the property?

I refer to this post
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2010, 10:50:54 PM »
the premises is the building itself(for the purposes of defining the pfz),parking lots are not a pfz,i was told this previously by a store manager and the recent discovery by someone on here which states the liquor control act defines the premises for this purpose is the enclosed area or building,further protected us.

that free meal they offered us was good,three times better than how they're food normally tastes.
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline Bronson

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 02:33:53 AM »
the premises is the building itself(for the purposes of defining the pfz),parking lots are not a pfz,i was told this previously by a store manager and the recent discovery by someone on here which states the liquor control act defines the premises for this purpose is the enclosed area or building,further protected us.

So the manager of a store is now expert on gun laws?  As to the recent discovery of the Liquor Control Boards definition of "licensed premises" that MAY hold water but my thoughts run more towards what Zigziggityzoo wrote on MGO:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=948493&postcount=33

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 01:12:08 PM »
No,the manager merely stated that the premises is the building itself,i have no idea what the managers do and dont know about michigan and federal firearm laws.

It really shouldn't surprise anyone that it is the building itself,otherwise thousands of people a year would be breaking the law by stopping in to get groceries while going to or from hunting or another firearm related activity.
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline Agent1

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 02:06:23 PM »
the premises is the building itself(for the purposes of defining the pfz),parking lots are not a pfz,i was told this previously by a store manager and the recent discovery by someone on here which states the liquor control act defines the premises for this purpose is the enclosed area or building,further protected us.

So the manager of a store is now expert on gun laws?  As to the recent discovery of the Liquor Control Boards definition of "licensed premises" that MAY hold water but my thoughts run more towards what Zigziggityzoo wrote on MGO:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=948493&postcount=33
Bronson


I am inclined to agree. A License holder can be fined for activity that takes place anywhere on the property through the Liquor Control Act. So it only make sense that the law apply's to the entire property. That is just my take on it.
"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, arn't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't."
 John Wayne (The Shootist.)

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 03:43:31 PM »
What we found is part of the liquor law. And no a licence holder cannot be fined for something going on in his parking lot or the rest of his property. I think you are referring to open containers? That would be on the person who opened it if it is outside the licensed premises which is the building or fenced area (at a festival) If it is a bar then of course open containers are allowed inside. But if you walk outside with it then YOU are drinking in public. You will be charged.

The issue is would the liquor law definition of premises hold up in court as it is not specified the same way in the firearms code.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline Bronson

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2010, 06:14:16 PM »
The issue is would the liquor law definition of premises hold up in court as it is not specified the same way in the firearms code.

Bingo.  We don't know if the courts would use a dictionary definition of "premises", in which case it'd be no carry anywhere on the property, or if they'd use the definition of "premises" as defined in the liquor law or another source, in which case it may be only the building that is off limits.  If were OCing sans CPL I'd stick with the broader definition.

Also, what about all the other prohibited places listed in .234d?  A non-CPL holder is still prohibited from being anywhere on the premises of those places.

Bronson
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Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2010, 02:37:43 PM »
Me and TheQ met up at this location again after corporate discussed with its managers the legality of citizens bearing arms,and the corporate policy regarding customers carrying inside the resturaunt.

No issues whatsoever.
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline Bronson

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2010, 03:48:27 PM »
Nevermind

Bronson
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 03:52:12 PM by Bronson »
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline ghostrider

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2010, 11:54:32 PM »
I hope you have your CPL "TheQ". Having a firearm in the parking lot of any establishment that has a license for the sale of alcohol without having a CPL is a "no no". Every Meijer I have been to has said license. Just thought you should know.

Mine was locked and stowed in the trunk while we ate.

However, I thought the law only pertained to the enclosed areas of the property?

I refer to this post

MCL 750.234d makes no mention of carry or possession method.

Offline Agent1

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2010, 11:33:30 AM »
What we found is part of the liquor law. And no a licence holder cannot be fined for something going on in his parking lot or the rest of his property. I think you are referring to open containers? That would be on the person who opened it if it is outside the licensed premises which is the building or fenced area (at a festival) If it is a bar then of course open containers are allowed inside. But if you walk outside with it then YOU are drinking in public. You will be charged.

The issue is would the liquor law definition of premises hold up in court as it is not specified the same way in the firearms code.

OT:
I wasn't being specific to just open containers, I was referring to fights, and "other illeagal activity" as well. If a fight breaks out in the parking lot of a bar, even after the bar is closed, the LCC can fine the bar for violations. I come from a family full of Bar and Tavern owners and I have seen and heard some messed up Sh!* that the LCC has done and gotten away with. I do not know this part to be fact, but My cousin (who is a Tavern owner in Tuscola Co.) told me about a year ago that if the 911 center recieved 3 complaints within 1 years time the LCC would cite them and the 4th would be a 1 week closer of the Tavern. 5th would be two weeks, and the 6th would be 1 month and the owner spend 48 hours in jail. I don't know that this is fact but I do know that after he got a warning about the fights in his parking lot, he hired security on Fri and Sat. night to try to calm things down for a while.
"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, arn't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger. I won't."
 John Wayne (The Shootist.)

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2010, 11:57:17 AM »
Cite the law that allows this. I have read the entire liquor law and see no where that this is codified.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline drtodd

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2010, 01:36:55 AM »
Cite the law that allows this. I have read the entire liquor law and see no where that this is codified.

I THINK it has to do with the concept of "dram shop", where if you are person who serves alcohol and a person who imbibes at your house, business, etc. and causes problems elsewhere, you are in some sense responsible.

The MLCC does say that premises is the "enclosed area"... it's been posted on here before...
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 486 at 489

"Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." Miranda v. Ariz., 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966).

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2010, 01:27:15 AM »
Me and TheQ went to this taco bell again,no issues.
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline emt805

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2010, 09:24:02 AM »
http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

 Pistol Free Areas
 
Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:

 

Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
 
Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
 
Sports arena or stadium
 
A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
 
Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
 
A hospital
 
A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
 
A Casino


"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.



A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:


First offense:  State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months
Second offense:  90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked
Third and subsequent offenses:  4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked

Furthermore, effective March 29, 2001, per Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court:

"Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy." 

Offline jeffsayers

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar - Asked to Leave
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2010, 03:36:41 PM »
...For next time ask to speak with that manager... I would not let counter help run me off that easy...

Well, to each their own. For me, I might seek to go higher in the ladder also but definitely situation dependant. I guess I see any employee of a company as an agent of the owner and thereby empowered to enforce private property rights. I think the actions in this encounter set good precedent.
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I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2010, 01:31:12 AM »
I was there again today,no issues...other than the cheap mexican food tearing my stomach apart now!
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Offline Big Gay Al

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2010, 05:42:13 AM »
I was there again today,no issues...other than the cheap mexican food tearing my stomach apart now!
I miss Taco Bell.  I'm supposed to stay away from that stuff, but I think, just one little meal won't kill me. :)  Of course, when my doctor said "moderation" I think he didn't know about the XXL Chalupa. ;)
Big Gay Al
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Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2010, 12:50:01 PM »
i love that thing.
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Offline Big Gay Al

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2010, 10:46:18 AM »
i love that thing.
I'd like it better if it looked like the one in the ad. :)
Big Gay Al
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Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2010, 06:01:48 PM »
wanna set up a mini meet there sometime in a week or so? we could probably get TheQ and fiancee,dukenukem,venator and whomever else around to go...
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline Big Gay Al

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2010, 08:39:32 AM »
wanna set up a mini meet there sometime in a week or so? we could probably get TheQ and fiancee,dukenukem,venator and whomever else around to go...
On or after the 17th would work for me.
Big Gay Al
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Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2010, 09:46:49 PM »
18th 3pm?gives time for schedules to be made and/or changed..
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Offline Big Gay Al

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Re: Lansing Taco Bell Store 1646 on S. Cedar
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2010, 09:59:19 PM »
18th 3pm?gives time for schedules to be made and/or changed..
Works for me.
Big Gay Al
Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols