Author Topic: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights  (Read 13053 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« on: March 04, 2015, 02:02:46 PM »
Lamphere High School went on lockdown today after a man was seen OCing a long gun and holstered pistol on sidewalk near school.

Officers who responded around 11:30 a.m. to the school on 13 Mile near Interstate 75 determined the man was exercising his right to open carry and was not a threat.

According to the PD, they knew the man who was an active OCer.  No arrests were made and they did not release his name.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2015/03/04/open-carry-prompts-school-lockdown/24376725/
http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/oakland-county/man-carrying-rifle-prompts-scare-at-lamphere-high-school-in-madison-heights

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 02:16:25 PM »
HCSGM
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 02:29:31 PM »
Am I supposed to be able to decipher that?  ;D

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 02:34:54 PM »

Am I supposed to be able to decipher that?  ;D

High Carbon Steel, Government Model
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 02:56:17 PM »
Was this really Neil or are you just saying that?

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 03:06:08 PM »

Was this really Neil or are you just saying that?

No clue...just seems his MO.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline 13mile9

  • Posts: 61
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 10:14:21 AM »
...that's my road.  I believe I've seen him before chatting with the cops on 13 mile near Stephenson (some time ago).  According to the principal's email I received & read, this individual, in speaking with cops, indicated he wanted to proceed onto the school’s property ; he did not proceed to do so, and made on his way.   Note: I'm not certain if it is the guy I've seen before, however, we don't have many long gun OC folks around here in Madison Heights.    School had a late start that day: 11:30a.m. -- so he walked on the grounds (attempted to) when the 13 mile traffic was heavy with parents and kids driving onto the property. 

« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:24:39 AM by 13mile9 »

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 10:45:35 AM »
Michigander said a video of that OC stop will be posted soon.

Offline 13mile9

  • Posts: 61
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2015, 02:42:38 PM »
It might have helped if actually went to the Police department, rather than the city offices... when looking to chat with an officer. 

Offline rabbivj

  • Posts: 14
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2015, 10:38:42 PM »


thats the video...i havent watched the video but i guess he was also LGOC too. 
"Ex quocumque facere poteris te sauciabit, nihilo comprehenso."

-NRA,GSSF,GeorgiaCarry.org Life Member
-Glock Certified Armorer
-NRA Certified Instructor
-NRA Certified RSO

Offline 13mile9

  • Posts: 61
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 02:01:58 PM »
He just came through again today... about a half hour ago.  We'll have more videos tonight I'm sure.  The video above is 1 of 4 from last week.    The cops were watching him today as well, but I don't think they had any interactions -- again, I'm sure we'll find out shortly. 

I do have a question:  one of you smart guys can answer this.  His closest encounter with the Madison Heights Police department was actually on the Lamphere School property.. as he left the side walk and proceeded up the drive to approach the office near the trees.   Technically, "at that point" could the police have requested ID and proof of a CPL?  Just curious.

i.e. -- if we are in a gun free zone open carrying, can an officer (or those in charge of the property) request proof of your CPL to show that your are within the law?   


Offline Hammurabi

  • Posts: 91
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2015, 02:55:20 PM »
I do have a question:  one of you smart guys can answer this.  His closest encounter with the Madison Heights Police department was actually on the Lamphere School property.. as he left the side walk and proceeded up the drive to approach the office near the trees.   Technically, "at that point" could the police have requested ID and proof of a CPL?  Just curious.

i.e. -- if we are in a gun free zone open carrying, can an officer (or those in charge of the property) request proof of your CPL to show that your are within the law?   
Is there any reason for them to suspect that you do not have a CPL? While you are driving, can an officer stop you for the purpose of verifying that you have a valid driver's license?

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2015, 03:19:37 PM »
While you are driving, can an officer stop you for the purpose of verifying that you have a valid driver's license?

No, because there is a SCOTUS case saying that is illegal.  In Delaware v. Prouse (1979), the Court ruled an officer has made an illegal seizure when he stops an automobile and detains the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile, unless the officer has articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed or that an automobile is not registered, or either the vehicle or an occupant is otherwise subject to seizure for violation of law.

In the case where a CPL proves your exception to law, if you don't provide your CPL on the spot you may have to provide it later at the PD.  I would show it to avoid a ride downtown.

Offline 13mile9

  • Posts: 61
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2015, 04:19:20 PM »
Is there any reason for them to suspect that you do not have a CPL? While you are driving, can an officer stop you for the purpose of verifying that you have a valid driver's license?

Well, I see what you're saying... however, in a "Gun Free Zone" the default is "gun free."  If an officer or the manager of the property observes one OC'n a weapon; are you saying it is their duty to first believe this person has a CPL?  Or, is it to first determine if the person has the appropriate license/permit to OC in the said zone -- which is granted via the CPL.     

Note:  I do work in a Gun Free Zone, but it isn't a school.

oh... I got emails from the school again today... they went into lock down.. because he was walking in front of the school.  (2 of them this week), and my 2 kids got pulled out of eating lunch!  He thinks he's cute on the sidewalk walking by, but inside the school my two kids had to put away their sandwiches and lunch goodies that my wife had got up at 6:30 to prepare... uh..

« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 04:51:49 PM by 13mile9 »

Offline Xpiatio

  • Posts: 409
  • First Name (Displayed): Benjamin
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2015, 07:34:57 PM »
Isn't there a distinction between LGOC and pistol open carry as it pertains to what we can do with a CPL.  I thought with the CPL, we are allowed to carry a pistol, in a holster not hidden in those zones that we can't conceal.  But he was carrying a rifle. I do not believe the same right extends to rifles?

Offline linux203

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 706
  • First Name (Displayed): Daniel
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2015, 07:49:21 PM »
Well, I see what you're saying... however, in a "Gun Free Zone" the default is "gun free."  If an officer or the manager of the property observes one OC'n a weapon; are you saying it is their duty to first believe this person has a CPL?  Or, is it to first determine if the person has the appropriate license/permit to OC in the said zone -- which is granted via the CPL.     

If I am openly carrying a pistol on a sidewalk, is this cause for an officer to stop and verify the pistol is licensed (RI-10 / CPL) or except from licensure (RI-10)?

What you call a "Gun Free Zone" is actually a Concealed Pistol Free Zone (CPFZ).  Does the presence of a non-concealed firearm in a concealed pistol free zone constitute a reasonable articulable suspicion?

I do have a question:  one of you smart guys can answer this.  His closest encounter with the Madison Heights Police department was actually on the Lamphere School property.. as he left the side walk and proceeded up the drive to approach the office near the trees.   Technically, "at that point" could the police have requested ID and proof of a CPL?  Just curious.

Any public property within 1,000 ft of a school requires licensure to be in compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 922 while carrying a firearm.  They either had the right to "Detain and ID" / "Stop and Frisk" or they didn't. No need to attempt to entrap him.

Isn't there a distinction between LGOC and pistol open carry as it pertains to what we can do with a CPL.  I thought with the CPL, we are allowed to carry a pistol, in a holster not hidden in those zones that we can't conceal.  But he was carrying a rifle. I do not believe the same right extends to rifles?

The exception of "An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon." is used repeatedly in Michigan statutes.  There is no stipulation on what type of weapon.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2015, 08:08:25 PM »
What you call a "Gun Free Zone" is actually a Concealed Pistol Free Zone (CPFZ).  Does the presence of a non-concealed firearm in a concealed pistol free zone constitute a reasonable articulable suspicion?

Does operation of a motor vehicle on a public thoroughfare constitute RAS of operating without a license?
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2015, 09:10:25 PM »
No.  Delaware v. Prouse.  But this situation is not analogous, and you would not win in court I fear.

Offline 13mile9

  • Posts: 61
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2015, 12:10:54 AM »
Any public property within 1,000 ft of a school requires licensure to be in compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 922 while carrying a firearm.  They either had the right to "Detain and ID" / "Stop and Frisk" or they didn't.

Yes, this fact was the foundation of my original question.  If the LEO had requested ID at the time on that spot, would they have been violating any "rights" in doing so?  Just walking on the sidewalk at that particular school places an individual within 1000 feet --- and to add, he left the sidewalk and ventured onto the actual property by walking up the drive.  Again, I curious about a possible scenario if the LEO had thought to ask for ID at that particular moment.   





Offline part deux

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 683
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2015, 10:23:47 AM »
No.  Delaware v. Prouse.  But this situation is not analogous, and you would not win in court I fear.
Are you suggesting that being on school property is RAS to allow for ID check?

Offline gryphon

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4037
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2015, 10:44:56 AM »
It is against the law to possess a pistol on school grounds.  Your CPL is proof of your exemption.  What's to stop your arrest for violating the law?  You don't have to show your CPL, but they could arrest you for violating a law.  Your defense--your proof of exemption--either on the street, in the police station, or in court, is your CPL.  Where do you want to show your CPL?  It's your choice.

That's different from walking down the street openly carrying (no law against it).  It's also different from stopping a driver just because "he might not possess a valid DL."  There is no RAS, just driving doesn't appear to be violating a law.  Carrying in a PFZ does appear to be violating a law.

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1482
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2015, 10:50:11 AM »
MCL 28.422 makes it illegal to purchases, carry, possess, or transport a pistol without a license. MCL 28.422a and 28.432 provide for exemptions.

Carrying down the street is against the law (unless licensed or exempted). However, we have so many exemptions that we effectively call it unlicensed carry now.

Offline 13mile9

  • Posts: 61
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2015, 12:27:51 PM »
Also to add... there has been great praise for 50 folks legally OC'n at the school board meeting.  Remaining within context of this thread, how did anyone know that all 50 were legally on school property with their weapon?   Were the folks/LEO checking for CPL's at the door?  (To add...being I wasn't present, my assumption is the board meeting was on school property -- as our meetings are...)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 12:41:52 PM by 13mile9 »

Offline CV67PAT

  • MOC Charter Member
  • Posts: 2615
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2015, 12:33:47 PM »
The 4th protects us from seizures that are "unreasonable".

It is "reasonable" for a police office to "suspect" that a crime is being committed when a person open carries a firearm on school property, because of the strictly regulated nature of firearm possession.

Therefore it is RAS for a LEO to detain (seize) a person for the purpose of determining if the person is licensed to posses a firearm at that time and place.

Of course the person can refuse to answer any questions without an attorney present. (This is different than invoking the right to remain silent.)

At that time the person will be arrested. And since they refused to identify themselves, the person will not be eligible for intirim bond. This means that the person will have to remain in custody (jail) until scheduled to appear for a hearing before a magistrate for arraignment. It is almost a guarantee that the person will be held over for trial.

At trial the person will be able to present his CPL as an affirmative defense. And in all likelihood found not guilty.

Pick your battles wisely.
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline TucTom

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2015, 01:10:06 PM »
13mile, if I am reading this thread correctly both the school and yourself know there is nothing illegal happening. So I will ask you, are you calling the school and telling them to stop harassing the OCer and to teach the kids?

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2015, 02:28:29 PM »

He just came through again today... about a half hour ago.  We'll have more videos tonight I'm sure.  The video above is 1 of 4 from last week.    The cops were watching him today as well, but I don't think they had any interactions -- again, I'm sure we'll find out shortly. 

I do have a question:  one of you smart guys can answer this.  His closest encounter with the Madison Heights Police department was actually on the Lamphere School property.. as he left the side walk and proceeded up the drive to approach the office near the trees.   Technically, "at that point" could the police have requested ID and proof of a CPL?  Just curious.

i.e. -- if we are in a gun free zone open carrying, can an officer (or those in charge of the property) request proof of your CPL to show that your are within the law?   

Real life pro-gun lawyers I know say yes, the cops could.

Be careful before you believe Internet lawyers.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline 13mile9

  • Posts: 61
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2015, 12:06:11 AM »
13mile, if I am reading this thread correctly both the school and yourself know there is nothing illegal happening. So I will ask you, are you calling the school and telling them to stop harassing the OCer and to teach the kids?

Great question...
1.  No, I don't believe anything illegal happened; and I'm rather certain the school is of the same mindset.  I don't believe the officers did either.  However, I do not have any information regarding their history with him.  If they didn't know him -- I'm of the mindset the officers should have immediately asked for ID and his CPL when he stepped off the public side walk and proceeded up the school drive to the speak to the officer parked under the tree.  Again, these few seconds of the encounter is what I wanted to point out.  He does state in the video he has CPL after leaving school property, but anybody can lie.  However, the officers actions revealed they didn't believe anything illegal was going on.  They were just annoyed...cautious, etc.. ??   

2.  You mentioned the school harassing him.  There is no evidence of that whatsoever.  If anything, the school principal has every right to know the legality of someone entering the property OC'n.  That's not harassment.  That's insuring the safety of those he responsible for.  Again, no evidence of harassment. 
However... if one were to watch the MDA video, you would think differently.  They would have you believe the kids were scurried off to dark closets and rooms to wait out the scary gunmen seeking to enter the school grounds...  That is extremely far from the truth...

3.  I did begin to write a letter to the superintendent, (to ask to cut out the lock downs...)  based on my assumptions of their reactions.  Well, in speaking with my children, according to them and their interactions with the teachers, this was treated rather well inside the school.  After the lockdown, the teachers explained what was going on, explained what the man was doing... in exercising his 2nd amendment rights, etc..etc..  They never spoke negative, etc..etc...   I do believe it frustrated the teachers/principal because they do seem to have a policy they have to follow --- Lockdown.. Man approaching school, in camo, carrying rifle... well... what do you do? 

Again, I backed off on writing, because I personally didn't hear any evidence from my children that offended me in how the school handled it. 
NOTE:  when he "does" come back around ( he will ), I do hope the officers properly profile him, acknowledge it's the same guy, and not do suggest to the school to do another lock down.  (...and I don't know if the PD actually requests lockdowns either...)

I don't believe anyone associated with MOC would agree that its o.k. to purposely desensitize the population to OC'n by continually pushing the lock down buttons at a local school.  I believe this individual knows he is doing this.  In my opinion, it is wrong.

4.  I do want to point out another area where I am confused.  He posted a video over a month ago entering the Madison Heights Police Department... and he attempted what he labeled a friendly conversation.  He indeed was actually in the Police Department.  In the March 4th series of videos, he makes a big deal out of the Police Department being locked.  He never went to the Police Department (while video recording)!   He instead walked up to the front of the city offices -- and did so during their lunch hour when they are closed.   How could he possibly go to the Police Department in February of 2015, have a conversation in the lobby, and then 1 week ago (March of 2015) walk up to the wrong building claiming it to be the Police Department.       ***Even at a certain video minute marker, you can pause and observe that he proceeded past a sign pointing to the Police Department -- while at that exact moment saying the words the Police Department is locked up.  The video never shows he went to the actual Police Department.

I'm confused.  Is this the same guy from the February video?  It's the same user name.  Same Voice.  Is this man sane?  Is he actually stable?  Was he nervous from the previous 30 minutes of crazy police encounters...and wasn't thinking straight?   Did he do it on purpose?  He seems well calculated in all he does up to that point -- and in other videos for that matter.   

This is an incredibly odd to me.     

No need to answer those statements in my point #4, as I'm sure the moderators here want this guy gone from the discussions.   However, I felt it necessary to point out my areas of confusion. 

Offline linux203

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 706
  • First Name (Displayed): Daniel
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2015, 12:44:58 AM »
The lockdown is the decision of the administrators.  Repeatedly calling the police amounts to harassment.

Calling a lockdown a disruption to the learning process and then leveraging that to discourage lawful conduct is manipulative and oppressive.  It is akin to a toddler throwing a temper tantrum when they don't get their way. 

Giving in to a tantrum only reinforces the behaviour.  If you don't want to be trolled, don't feed the trolls.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline Xpiatio

  • Posts: 409
  • First Name (Displayed): Benjamin
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2015, 10:00:39 AM »
While I personally do not think its wise to carry a rifle on school grounds, I do support open carry of a pistol on school grounds.  Regardless, I think a guy carrying a gun with a perceived temper problem becomes a liability.   These type of encounters do open carry an injustice.  It plays right into their hands of "look open carry is dangerous".   While it may become annoying to have police follow you around or perhaps "harass" you. I do not think he should have lost his temper.  It did not help his cause any.  It could have caused an impasse of the pending lawsuit against Clio, a different school district.  Bad legislation is rushed legislation. I can see rushed legislation stemming from situations like this.

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2015, 12:02:59 PM »
As I told WWJ talk radio in Detroit: I support someone's right to be a jerk, but I will not support their jerky behavior nor associate with said jerk.

This guy, in his behavior, was a jerk. Not because he carried a riffle, but because of his words and attitude.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline CV67PAT

  • MOC Charter Member
  • Posts: 2615
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2015, 03:45:26 PM »
I have a problem being in proximity to people with anger management issues.

I have an even greater problem being in proximity of armed people with anger management issues attempting to enter an occupied school with no lawful reason for being there.

This nutjob is know to lurk around occupied playgrounds while armed with his sniper rifle.
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update


Offline Xpiatio

  • Posts: 409
  • First Name (Displayed): Benjamin
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2015, 06:47:35 PM »
I have a problem being in proximity to people with anger management issues.

I have an even greater problem being in proximity of armed people with anger management issues attempting to enter an occupied school with no lawful reason for being there.

This nutjob is know to lurk around occupied playgrounds while armed with his sniper rifle.
+1

Offline TucTom

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2015, 11:23:09 AM »
nevermind.

Offline CV67PAT

  • MOC Charter Member
  • Posts: 2615
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
Re: OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2015, 06:19:32 PM »
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?