OCer prompts school lockdown in Madison Heights

[gryphon]

Lamphere High School went on lockdown today after a man was seen OCing a long gun and holstered pistol on sidewalk near school.

Officers who responded around 11:30 a.m. to the school on 13 Mile near Interstate 75 determined the man was exercising his right to open carry and was not a threat.

According to the PD, they knew the man who was an active OCer.  No arrests were made and they did not release his name.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2015/03/04/open-carry-prompts-school-lockdown/24376725/
http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/oakland-county/man-carrying-rifle-prompts-scare-at-lamphere-high-school-in-madison-heights

[TheQ]

HCSGM

[gryphon]

Am I supposed to be able to decipher that? 

[TheQ]

Am I supposed to be able to decipher that? 

High Carbon Steel, Government Model

[gryphon]

Was this really Neil or are you just saying that?

[TheQ]

Was this really Neil or are you just saying that?

No clue...just seems his MO.

[13mile9]

...that's my road.  I believe I've seen him before chatting with the cops on 13 mile near Stephenson (some time ago).  According to the principal's email I received & read, this individual, in speaking with cops, indicated he wanted to proceed onto the school’s property ; he did not proceed to do so, and made on his way.   Note: I'm not certain if it is the guy I've seen before, however, we don't have many long gun OC folks around here in Madison Heights.    School had a late start that day: 11:30a.m. -- so he walked on the grounds (attempted to) when the 13 mile traffic was heavy with parents and kids driving onto the property. 

[gryphon]

Michigander said a video of that OC stop will be posted soon.

[13mile9]

It might have helped if actually went to the Police department, rather than the city offices... when looking to chat with an officer. 

[rabbivj]

thats the video...i havent watched the video but i guess he was also LGOC too. 

[13mile9]

He just came through again today... about a half hour ago.  We'll have more videos tonight I'm sure.  The video above is 1 of 4 from last week.    The cops were watching him today as well, but I don't think they had any interactions -- again, I'm sure we'll find out shortly. 

I do have a question:  one of you smart guys can answer this.  His closest encounter with the Madison Heights Police department was actually on the Lamphere School property.. as he left the side walk and proceeded up the drive to approach the office near the trees.   Technically, "at that point" could the police have requested ID and proof of a CPL?  Just curious.

i.e. -- if we are in a gun free zone open carrying, can an officer (or those in charge of the property) request proof of your CPL to show that your are within the law?   

[Hammurabi]

I do have a question:  one of you smart guys can answer this.  His closest encounter with the Madison Heights Police department was actually on the Lamphere School property.. as he left the side walk and proceeded up the drive to approach the office near the trees.   Technically, "at that point" could the police have requested ID and proof of a CPL?  Just curious.

i.e. -- if we are in a gun free zone open carrying, can an officer (or those in charge of the property) request proof of your CPL to show that your are within the law?   

Is there any reason for them to suspect that you do not have a CPL? While you are driving, can an officer stop you for the purpose of verifying that you have a valid driver's license?

[gryphon]

While you are driving, can an officer stop you for the purpose of verifying that you have a valid driver's license?

No, because there is a SCOTUS case saying that is illegal.  In Delaware v. Prouse (1979), the Court ruled an officer has made an illegal seizure when he stops an automobile and detains the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile, unless the officer has articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed or that an automobile is not registered, or either the vehicle or an occupant is otherwise subject to seizure for violation of law.

In the case where a CPL proves your exception to law, if you don't provide your CPL on the spot you may have to provide it later at the PD.  I would show it to avoid a ride downtown.

[13mile9]

Is there any reason for them to suspect that you do not have a CPL? While you are driving, can an officer stop you for the purpose of verifying that you have a valid driver's license?

Well, I see what you're saying... however, in a "Gun Free Zone" the default is "gun free."  If an officer or the manager of the property observes one OC'n a weapon; are you saying it is their duty to first believe this person has a CPL?  Or, is it to first determine if the person has the appropriate license/permit to OC in the said zone -- which is granted via the CPL.     

Note:  I do work in a Gun Free Zone, but it isn't a school.

oh... I got emails from the school again today... they went into lock down.. because he was walking in front of the school.  (2 of them this week), and my 2 kids got pulled out of eating lunch!  He thinks he's cute on the sidewalk walking by, but inside the school my two kids had to put away their sandwiches and lunch goodies that my wife had got up at 6:30 to prepare... uh..

[Xpiatio]

Isn't there a distinction between LGOC and pistol open carry as it pertains to what we can do with a CPL.  I thought with the CPL, we are allowed to carry a pistol, in a holster not hidden in those zones that we can't conceal.  But he was carrying a rifle. I do not believe the same right extends to rifles?

[linux203]

Well, I see what you're saying... however, in a "Gun Free Zone" the default is "gun free."  If an officer or the manager of the property observes one OC'n a weapon; are you saying it is their duty to first believe this person has a CPL?  Or, is it to first determine if the person has the appropriate license/permit to OC in the said zone -- which is granted via the CPL.     

If I am openly carrying a pistol on a sidewalk, is this cause for an officer to stop and verify the pistol is licensed (RI-10 / CPL) or except from licensure (RI-10)?

What you call a "Gun Free Zone" is actually a Concealed Pistol Free Zone (CPFZ).  Does the presence of a non-concealed firearm in a concealed pistol free zone constitute a reasonable articulable suspicion?

I do have a question:  one of you smart guys can answer this.  His closest encounter with the Madison Heights Police department was actually on the Lamphere School property.. as he left the side walk and proceeded up the drive to approach the office near the trees.   Technically, "at that point" could the police have requested ID and proof of a CPL?  Just curious.

Any public property within 1,000 ft of a school requires licensure to be in compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 922 while carrying a firearm.  They either had the right to "Detain and ID" / "Stop and Frisk" or they didn't. No need to attempt to entrap him.

Isn't there a distinction between LGOC and pistol open carry as it pertains to what we can do with a CPL.  I thought with the CPL, we are allowed to carry a pistol, in a holster not hidden in those zones that we can't conceal.  But he was carrying a rifle. I do not believe the same right extends to rifles?

The exception of "An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon." is used repeatedly in Michigan statutes.  There is no stipulation on what type of weapon.

[CitizensHaveRights]

What you call a "Gun Free Zone" is actually a Concealed Pistol Free Zone (CPFZ).  Does the presence of a non-concealed firearm in a concealed pistol free zone constitute a reasonable articulable suspicion?

Does operation of a motor vehicle on a public thoroughfare constitute RAS of operating without a license?

[gryphon]

No.  Delaware v. Prouse.  But this situation is not analogous, and you would not win in court I fear.

[13mile9]

Any public property within 1,000 ft of a school requires licensure to be in compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 922 while carrying a firearm.  They either had the right to "Detain and ID" / "Stop and Frisk" or they didn't.

Yes, this fact was the foundation of my original question.  If the LEO had requested ID at the time on that spot, would they have been violating any "rights" in doing so?  Just walking on the sidewalk at that particular school places an individual within 1000 feet --- and to add, he left the sidewalk and ventured onto the actual property by walking up the drive.  Again, I curious about a possible scenario if the LEO had thought to ask for ID at that particular moment.   

[part deux]

No.  Delaware v. Prouse.  But this situation is not analogous, and you would not win in court I fear.

Are you suggesting that being on school property is RAS to allow for ID check?