Author Topic: MOC files lawsuit against Clio Area Schools, Seeks to protect law abiding gun ow  (Read 5149 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Karma: +27/-28
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
Clio schools claim open carry gun lawsuit based on misunderstanding of law

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/07/clio_schools_ask_for_dismissal.html
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
Wow, Mlive actually used the words "hoplophobia" and "anti-gun" to describe public officials, and in a headline no less.

Clio schools' anti-gun stance based on 'hoplophobia,' not law, father says
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/07/clio_schools_anti-gun_stance_b.html
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline TheQ

  • Website Content Manager
  • MOC Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4263
  • Karma: +591/-37
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
  • First Name (Displayed): Phillip

Wow, Mlive actually used the words "hoplophobia" and "anti-gun" to describe public officials, and in a headline no less.

Clio schools' anti-gun stance based on 'hoplophobia,' not law, father says
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/07/clio_schools_anti-gun_stance_b.html

Actually, that's what Dean said in his brief.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/08/judges_ruling_allows_open_carr.html

Genesee Circuit Judge Archie Hayman on Monday, Aug. 10, ruled in favor of Kenneth Herman, who filed the lawsuit March 5 in Genesee County Circuit Court against the Clio Area School District after he was denied access to Edgerton Elementary multiple times while attempting to pick up his daughter because he was open-carrying a pistol.

"The ruling today does not come as a surprise, the law is the law," Herman said after Hayman's decision. "Now that Clio Area Schools have heard the ruling, read the laws and the Court of Appeals case law has been explained to them, I [hope] they stop burning through tax dollars fighting the law and common sense."

School officials and district attorney, Timothy Mullins, could not be reached for comment on the decision.

Some background on Kenneth Herman:
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20131213/firearms-in-the-family-families-changed-by-guns-share-stories

"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Karma: +27/-28
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
BAM! WIN!

Clio might appeal. If they do, we expect the same result. In that event, state wide precedent would be set.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
Ooh, look at the twisting panties in the Detroit News editorial staffroom:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/editorials/2015/08/16/schools-place-open-carry/31657559/

Our Editorial: Schools no place for open carry
The Detroit News 12:05 a.m. EDT August 16, 2015

Advocates for unrestricted gun rights are provoking a reckless fight with school districts; it’s one they should lose


Open carry advocates who are insisting on exercising their rights to carry pistols and rifles into schools, unconcealed, should put themselves in the place of principals who have the heavy responsibility of keeping a few hundred children safe from harm.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch

More of the same, this time from a Freep reader:
http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/readers/2015/08/20/open-carry-rights-michigan/32081331/


It is time the Michigan Legislature takes a stand against the powerful gun lobby to protect the right of Michigan children to learn in a safe environment. There is no way a school employee can determine who is a God-fearing, law-abiding, gun-toting parent exercising his or her Second Amendment right or who is a unbalanced individual entering a school to kill.

Districts are correct in ordering a lockdown to keep our children and educators safe, even as it robs children of educational time and promotes a climate of fear. I hope they will continue to do so. For some in this country, the exercise of their individual freedoms are much more important than respecting the common good.

The courts can do nothing. Schools can do nothing. Are there any legislators in Michigan who will stand up to give children the same safe environment for learning as they give judges and lawyers to go about their day in courthouses throughout our state?

Nancy Guregian

Livonia
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline Super Trucker

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 443
  • Karma: +18/-2
Can this person determine which 4x4 pickup is going to drove down the sidewalk 5 minutes after the bell rings? Guess the legislation needs to make a law of no vehicles within 1 mile of a school.

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Karma: +27/-28
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
Today, Judge Hayman denied our request for fees and costs. While unfortunate, it was not unexpected.

Offline gryphon

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3885
  • Karma: +129/-128
  • First Name (Displayed): Dan
Boo.

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Karma: +27/-28
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
The judge also narrowed his ruling to simply a matter of law. While this does give the school a bit of wiggle room, it puts us in a very good position for the Court of Appeals. The only thing they will have to look at is the law, without any case specific facts to muck up the waters. At least, that's my understanding.

Offline LD

  • Legal Musings
  • *
  • Posts: 141
  • Karma: +6/-6
Today, Judge Hayman denied our request for fees and costs. While unfortunate, it was not unexpected.

Did the judge give a reason for the denial?

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Karma: +27/-28
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
*** MOC/Herman v. Clio Area Schools Update ***

Please support this case today. www.miopencarry.org/donatelegal

Last month CAS filed their brief in their appeal of a circuit court judge's ruling that public schools are preempted by state law and thus cannot enact their own weapons bans.

In August, Genesee Circuit Court Judge Archie Hayman rejected CAS's motion for summary judgement (dismissal) and instead granted declaratory judgement in favor of MOC/Herman stating:

"Only the Michigan Legislature can completely ban the possession of firearms on school property; and, as of yet, the Michigan Legislature has not fit - or seen fit to impose that ban."

CAS is now appealing that ruling. In their 23 page Brief on Appeal CAS essentially reargues the same points they brought up in circuit court. State statute does not preempt schools, a case that has nothing to do with firearm preemption is controlling, and guns are bad because bad people have used them to harm others in schools before.

While we do not believe their arguments hold merit, based on the language used to state those arguments it is becoming increasingly clear that large and well funded forces are aligning against us. This appeal, the MGO v. AAPS circuit ruling, the Wade v. UofM Court of Claims ruling, and a recent update from NEOLA (and organization that helps schools write policy) all contain substantially similar language.

Make no mistake, the people pushing an extreme agenda who are trying to take away your rights are well connected and well funded, often with taxpayer money. Will you help us stand up and fight them?

Please consider donating today. Even small reoccurring donations add up over time and area greatly appreciated. www.miopencarry.org/donatelegal

If you would like to read the brief, it can be found here:
https://media.miopencarry.org/litigation/Clio/CoA/Clio%20Brief%20on%20Appeal%2019NOV2015.pdf

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
*** MOC/Herman v. Clio Area Schools Update ***

Please support this case today. www.miopencarry.org/donatelegal

CAS is now appealing that ruling. In their 23 page Brief on Appeal CAS essentially reargues the same points they brought up in circuit court. State statute does not preempt schools, a case that has nothing to do with firearm preemption is controlling, and guns are bad because bad people have used them to harm others in schools before.

So, they're saying, in effect:
1) preemption doesn't apply to them
2) they hope the judges are idiots
and
3) they hope the judges are idiots

Does Indiana assess triple attorney fees on the losing municipality in preemption cases?
I like that idea.
This post is all I've seen on that subject:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?95080-Open-carrier-sues-Evansville-IN-for-removal-from-zoo&p=2154748&viewfull=1#post2154748
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Karma: +27/-28
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
I don't know about triple attorney fees, but we are working on HB 4795. http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2015-HB-4795

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
4795 would be a huge step forward, making costs and attorney fees the responsibility of the voters and forcing a fine of "up to $5k" on the elected official. It would be amusing to see how the courts determine the size of those fines, I can imagine my local judges bending over backwards to protect other local politicians. If the actual fines are closer to $100 the deterrent value goes away.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline bigt8261

  • MOC President
  • MOC Board Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1480
  • Karma: +27/-28
    • Michigan Open Carry, Inc
  • First Name (Displayed): Tom
You're not wrong, but even a $100 fine would be a huge step forward. My guess is it would curtail at least 99.99% of future issues.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +24/-14
  • First Name (Displayed): Mitch
And it appears the text says 'shall assess a fine', and that makes some fine mandatory, right? (although I guess the judge could just avoid finding that the public official acted willfully)

If a voting majority of the county commissioners got whacked $5k each, mass politician panic would ensue.
"Plaintiff awarded $10k damages in false arrest suit, commissioners fined $40k" sounds great for a headline, eh?
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline linux203

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 706
  • Karma: +21/-16
  • First Name (Displayed): Daniel
If a CADL board member was fined, the money would go back to CADL.  Food for thought...
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36