Author Topic: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"  (Read 2757 times)

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Offline bigt8261

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NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« on: March 19, 2015, 01:16:26 PM »
Quote
Would like to understand the purpose of MOC's law suit of Clio
schools.  I am a NRA member and second amendment supporter, but we are not
making any friends by walking in schools with visible guns making everyone
nervous and causing a lock down. I don't open carry since I don't have too,
and I think it is a big disadvantage vs concealed.  If your purpose is to
eliminate pistol free zones I'm for that but I don't think having some
rednecks walking in schools with rifles is going to win anyone over, I
actually feel the opposite.  My wife works for Clio schools and some of them
do have CPL, I would ask that your organization does not make CPL holder bad
to the public especially when telling people it's your right to have their
pistol in school with everyone's elses kid also.  It would be nice to see
your organization do something positive for the community vs causing tax
payer money on a bull $#|t law suit that may cause more gun control.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 01:40:35 PM by bigt8261 »

Offline bigt8261

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2015, 01:19:02 PM »
MOC's initial response:

Quote
Hello Mr. [Butter],

My name is Tom Lambert and I am the Vice President of MOC. I am also an NRA member and Certified Instructor, as is the plaintiff Mr. Herman.

Before you say anything else, I highly suggest you read the complaint as you seem to have little understanding of the facts of this case. You can find a copy of the complaint here: http://cdn.media.miopencarry.org/litigation/Clio/StateCircuit/MOC%20Complaint.pdf?_ga=1.88567123.9500535.1397571807

As you will find out, this is not about some "redneck" with a rifle. Mr. Herman carries a pistol and conducts himself with respect and dignity at all times. He also tried very hard to work with the school on numerous occasions and with an attorney. This lawsuit is a last resort measure resulting from the school's absolute refusal to follow the law and respect Mr. Herman.

You will also notice that the suit does not seek punitive monetary damages. If you deplore taxpayer money being wasted as much as we do, then I suggest you tell Clio to start following State law. It really is that simple.

Lastly, while I very rarely do this, you should be ashamed of yourself. Ignorant ad hominem is something I expect from the other side, but not a fellow NRA member. Just because you paid your $25, doesn't mean you are a real Second Amendment supporter. I suggest you keep your "but"s to yourself until you gain a better understanding of the situation. For what it's worth, the Superintendent is a "big NRA" guy too, yet he is the one that made the illegal threat to trespass Mr. Herman. I for one am proud to stand with Mr. Herman against the lawless actions of Clio Area Schools, and yes, even from the ones that are NRA "members".

Tom Lambert
Vice President
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 01:40:53 PM by bigt8261 »

Offline Jeff

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 01:30:10 PM »
Classic.  His wife gave him incorrect information, he then spouted off about it like most everyone does on the internet without looking into it in the least.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 01:40:04 PM »
Butter response:
Quote
I read the complaint, all ready knew that information. Although technically legal, it may not be polite for me to walk in a elementary with in AK pistol on my back.  Mr. Herman may be a fine gentlemen, but the story to me makes all CPL holders sound like rednecks that have to openly carry firearms in elementary schools.  I believe concealed carry would be the solution here and solve the problem and eliminate gun free zones, but to open carry in a elementary school and to expect to have no problem is ignorant especially these days.  Just because you think it's great to open carry doesn't make you better than us that don't or make NRA membership $25 more valid.  There is a time and place open carry, hopefully  not to cause a school to lock down.  From what I heard this guy was looking for conflict every time he was there and was getting in everyone's face about it.  I disagree with your stance since now this will be public information and you guys want to challenge AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?  This will probably bring more gun control to Michigan that I do not want.  Well I do appreciate your response, but if want start calling me so more names keep it to yourself, it doesn't look very professional or intelligent for a president of an organization.

Thank you

[Butter]

Offline bigt8261

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 01:42:30 PM »
MOC response. I suspect final.
Quote
Mr. [Butter]:

I appreciate you taking the time to write us. I just wanted to clarify a few things for you: Tom is the VP. I'm the President. I've commended Tom because my reply would have been much more brief and less professional.

Perhaps we'll have to disagree on this one. If you don't like the "story" perhaps you should complain about the news coverage -- assuming you don't like it...or complain to the school board for being lawless bureaucrats.

I would expect any true right supporting gun owner would support and want lawful carry in a school. At this time, OC is the only lawful carry for Mr. Herman in this case.

I fear that I am not talking to a principled rights supporting gun owner though -- and that is unfortunate.

Phillip Hofmeister
President
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

Offline TucTom

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 04:33:36 PM »
Good job Tom and Phil. My initial thoughts in regards to the original correspondence matches Phils last sentence in his response.

Offline gryphon

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 04:59:29 PM »
Butter: "I believe concealed carry would be the solution here and solve the problem and eliminate gun free zones"

Those things would be nice.

Offline ken243

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 05:22:49 PM »
AK pistol on my back? Is the Glock 17 or Glock 20 considered an AK pistol? This is the type of delusional people that concern me. He forms an incorrect legal, ethical and logical opinion without any facts.
Common sense, isn't.
I can't fix stupid.

Offline gryphon

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2015, 05:27:01 PM »
Is the Glock 17 or Glock 20 considered an AK pistol?

Yes.  See lower left corner.


Offline gryphon

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2015, 08:23:49 PM »
Just to add one more.

+++++

Mr. xxxxxxx
 
I have read your posts to our Michigan Open Carry contact page, and like the others I would like to thank you for contacting us.
 
I think that Tom and Phil have adequately addressed your initial concerns, so I don’t think I need to add anything to what they’ve stated.  I would, however, like to address a concern of yours when you wrote, “Hopefully your organization does much more positive things for gun owners than attacking elementary schools.”
 
Yes, we do.  Quite a bit, actually.  We funded and won a lawsuit against the Capital Area District Library (CADL v. Michigan Open Carry) which established case law stating (clarifying) that the state completely occupies the field of firearms regulation, and that quasi-municipal corporations, authorities, and other subordinates to local units of government are covered by this law.  What does this mean for the average gun owner?  It means that cities, towns, and villages had to remove all their signage stating that parks and (most) government buildings and other areas were off limits to lawfully carried firearms.  It means that city buses had to remove their “no firearms” signage and change their rules so that now a gun owner can take his lawfully carried pistol on a bus with him to work or the store and must not remain defenseless simply because he or she doesn’t own a car.  And it means that K-12 schools can’t prohibit guns.
 
We also authored legislation (HB 5500) that would “add teeth” to preemption and provide for penalties for preemption violation.
 
We worked in concert with legislators on SB 34 and 35 that were recently signed into law by Governor Snyder that eliminated our archaic county gun boards who often were abusing their authority and making up their own rules.
 
We worked with legislators drafting HB 4160 and 4161 that would define in law the term “brandishing” so that law enforcement could not wrongfully use that as a catch-all reason for arrest.
 
We are working on the elimination of pistol-free zones.
 
These are just some of the things we have done or are currently doing.  You asked what we are trying to accomplish with the lawsuit.  The small picture is that we are trying to ensure that this school obeys the law so a father can lawfully attend events, meetings, or pick up his child without having to disarm.  The bigger picture is that we want CADL v. MOC upheld.  We want government to obey its own preemption law—a law that benefits all gun owners—and we are trying to ensure that it does so.  It disturbs me to see that there are some who want schools (Clio and Ann Arbor to name two) to violate state law.  If they can do it, why can’t any other government agency or municipal authority?
 
You wrote that you felt that “the rest our rights may be diminished if a new law is written due to your lawsuit.”  Let’s say that happened and the legislature made schools also off-limits to open carry because of our lawsuit.  Since you are against parents open carrying in schools anyway, how does this make things worse?  If K-12 schools weren’t CC-free zones, I think most if not all parents would be willing to conceal, but as you know the current law forces parents to carry openly.


Regards,
 
Dan Griffin
MOC Newsletter Editor

+++++

reply:

Thank you to all, Dan especially thank you for your response.  Not trying to start a fight.  Dan your explanation is what I was looking for initially.  Thanks.

Offline Jeff

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 08:33:12 PM »
I have me one of those Glock Ak-47 tactical caliber assault clip military rifles in my sleep'n shanty.

reply:

Thank you to all, Dan especially thank you for your response.  Not trying to start a fight.  Dan your explanation is what I was looking for initially.  Thanks.

Nice work.

Offline ken243

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2015, 10:03:57 PM »
Nice work by all. It seems the knee-jerk reaction was able to be corrected.
Common sense, isn't.
I can't fix stupid.

Offline Xpiatio

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 10:32:01 PM »
I might go so far as to assume that butter is not a nra member because of his AK pistol comment.   Perhaps he is getting information mixed up with the even that happened in Madison heights.   I remain skeptical.   

Offline linux203

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2015, 07:23:08 AM »
There are numerous NRA members that own firearms for hunting only. Those of us that carry for self defense generally have a much greater understanding of firearms, laws, and news events. Just my observation.

Those are the dangerous ones. They really don't care about gun control until it affects their rifle or shotgun.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline Super Trucker

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2015, 08:35:41 AM »
There are numerous NRA members that own firearms for hunting only. Those of us that carry for self defense generally have a much greater understanding of firearms, laws, and news events. Just my observation.

Those are the dangerous ones. They really don't care about gun control until it affects their rifle or shotgun.
Look at all the "gun people" that didn't have any issues with MI pistols being eliminated.

Offline Langenc

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Re: NRA member upset with Clio "redneck"
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 12:35:16 PM »
GO GO HB 5500!!!

Im calling my rep about that ands his support of no purchase permits for LEO and other special groups he has supported in the past.