Author Topic: Islands, Churches, and Guns  (Read 10014 times)

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Offline darrenlobo

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Islands, Churches, and Guns
« on: June 24, 2015, 09:09:28 PM »
Islands, Churches, and Guns

As usual, a mass shooting like the one in Charleston brings out the gun rights haters who want to cynically use the blood of the victims to grease the skids for their gun control schemes. One hears and reads claim after nonsensical claim that if only we had less gun rights and fewer guns in the United States the victims would still be alive. Reality tells us something very different.

http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2015/06/islands-churches-and-guns.html

Offline freediver

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 03:47:39 PM »
You would probably get a little more understanding from the non-open carry crowd if you quit calling them names like "gun-rights haters". There are a lot of people out there who are not comfortable around guns, sometimes with good reason. There are people out there who do not see the need to carry a gun everywhere they go. There are many of your fellow citizens and gun owners, me included, who see that gun violence has gotten out of hand and more sensible, EFFECTIVE gun laws are in order. If you want people to understand your position, try understanding theirs. If you resort to anger, or name-calling, or labeling, that means that you really have nothing useful to say. As far as the claim that less guns in our society is non-sensical, I disagree with you. We have such a low bar to gun ownership in this country, such a casual approach to ownership and safety, that tens of thousands of people die each year from firearms-related deaths. If you can show one example, just one, of a society that was improved or made safer by MORE guns, I'd love to hear about it. I keep an open mind on these things. I welcome any argument made and try to learn from it. But you have to show up with facts, not just emotional diatribes.

Offline darrenlobo

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 06:08:41 PM »
You would probably get a little more understanding from the non-open carry crowd if you quit calling them names like "gun-rights haters". There are a lot of people out there who are not comfortable around guns, sometimes with good reason. There are people out there who do not see the need to carry a gun everywhere they go. There are many of your fellow citizens and gun owners, me included, who see that gun violence has gotten out of hand and more sensible, EFFECTIVE gun laws are in order. If you want people to understand your position, try understanding theirs. If you resort to anger, or name-calling, or labeling, that means that you really have nothing useful to say. As far as the claim that less guns in our society is non-sensical, I disagree with you. We have such a low bar to gun ownership in this country, such a casual approach to ownership and safety, that tens of thousands of people die each year from firearms-related deaths. If you can show one example, just one, of a society that was improved or made safer by MORE guns, I'd love to hear about it. I keep an open mind on these things. I welcome any argument made and try to learn from it. But you have to show up with facts, not just emotional diatribes.

Thank you for the reply, Freediver. I call people who want to infringe on our gun rights "gun rights haters". Gun owners who don't carry aren't included in that group. I use the term because there has to be an emotional side to arguments presented in any media. Gun rights haters get this which is why they call us all kinds of things. Where they fail is in relying almost exclusively on this. I rely on facts & season the argument with the name.

If you look at guns & think that removing them from society (or more like it is attempting to do so by law) will save lives you're wrong. What matters are social dynamics that drive the murder rate up or down. During his presentation "Why Is The United States The Most Homicidal Nation In The Affluent World?” http://nij.gov/multimedia/presenter/presenter-roth/Pages/welcome.aspx Professor Randy Roth of Ohio State University speaks for an hour about the causes of murder and why the murder rate fluctuates. What are most conspicuous for their absence is that he doesn't mention guns. They only come up during the question and answer period because of an audience question. You can also read an article I wrote on the subject: http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2015/01/gun-rights-versus-anecdotes.html

As to naming a country made safer by having more guns I'd name the US & its 2.5 million times per year that people use guns to defend themselves. There are 110 countries in the world with higher murder rates than here & the US murder rate is below the world average. Also, both Canada & the UK had lower murder rates before they had gun control/gun bans. Not to mention Venezuela that banned guns in 2012 & then went on to have the 2nd highest murder rate in the world.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2015, 08:24:01 AM »
Thank you for the reply, Freediver. I call people who want to infringe on our gun rights "gun rights haters". Gun owners who don't carry aren't included in that group.

But people who think anti gun laws are "common sense" are definitely in that group. If you openly hate my civil rights, why should I not denounce you (obscenely denounce if I have the opportunity to do it to your face)?

"There are many of your fellow citizens and gun owners, me included, who see that gun violence has gotten out of hand and more sensible, EFFECTIVE gun laws are in order. "   -those are the words of a Commie Sense Hater of Basic Civil Rights.
When violating MY RIGHTS is just 'common sense' to you, well, we don't have much to base a civilized conversation upon.

"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline freediver

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2015, 09:23:34 AM »
Mr Darrenlobo: As I stated before, your use of the term "gun rights hater" is way off the mark. I am a gun owner, including handguns. I don't often carry, because I have no need to. I respect your personal choice to legally carry a firearm. There are plenty of your fellow citizens who do not see the firearms issue the way you do, and for very sensible reasons. They see the potential for violence in society, they see a better way to conduct ourselves, and they see examples around the world (Japan, England, and Australia, just for starters) where citizens are able to live productive, safe, even peaceful lives without everyone packing a gun. They are not wrong. They just have a different viewpoint on this topic than you and I do. One of the cornerstones of our democracy is that EVERY citizen's opinion counts. When we make policy, every person's opinions, needs, and desires are accounted for, not just yours. If your attitude is one of "my way or the highway", then you are espousing the very sort of intolerant tyranny that many people rail against. In a democracy we all get to vote, we all get to decide. And your decision to label anyone who doesn't agree with you as a "gun rights hater" exhibits the same sort of close-mindedness that you complain about.
As far as your statistics and the "2.5 million times per year", I suggest you go back and redo your research. That number and others like it have been proven to be so exaggerated as to be absurd. The 2.5 million number came from a study by Kleck and Getz in 1992 where they randomly phone sampled 5000 people, took their numbers, then extrapolated the figures out for the size of the US population at the time. Many articles have been written debunking that study and those numbers. Their methodology was flawed, as they have admitted. They failed to account for all kinds of sampling errors. And when you compare their projections to the actual number of crimes and gun owners in the US, the 2.5 million figure is mathematically impossible. And Kleck/Getz also admitted that somewhere between 36-64% of the defensive gun use incidents were probably illegal under our laws. So let's talk real stats. The CDC took a look at 2010 and found that there were roughly 105,000 people killed or injured by firearms. Of those, 73,500 were injured, about 32,000 were killed. Of the 32,00 deaths, 61% were suicides.. A recent Bureau of Justice survey found that there were about 67,000 defensive guns uses per year. Other studies have placed that number as high as 100,000. But none of these figures is anywhere near 2.5 million. Other stats that might be handy: 9 times more people were victimized with a gun than were defended by a gun. Among teenagers that figure was 13 times (the stupidity of youth). A gun was 6 times more likely to intimidate a family member than to defend them. An excellent article to read would be "Debunking the defensive gun use myth" on the Armed With Reason Website.
Again, I fully uphold your right to legally carry a firearm. But if we're going to have a reasonable dialogue about this and come up with some solutions that work for ALL of our citizens, we need to do two things. First, drop the name calling. Your fellow citizens deserve the same consideration that you do. Second, use facts, not inflated BS or lies. There are many studies out there that deal with REAL crime and gun use statistics. Let's all use good numbers so that we can have an intelligent, productive conversation.

Best of luck.

Offline darrenlobo

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2015, 09:16:58 PM »
I don't see Kleck & Gertz admitting to anything wrong with the numbers they produce here http://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Armed-Resistance-to-Crime.pdf#page=5&zoom=auto,-134,569  Instead they destroy at least one of your studies.

Real stats don't come from gun rights haters like the CDC. Remember that the CDC also produced a study that said that they can't find evidence that gun control makes any difference.

Check this out When the other side starts following your advice & respecting us I'll be glad to stop calling them names.

The comparison to other countries is interesting & shows that gun control doesn't work. I just wrote about that http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2015/06/murder-rates-why-comparing-united_29.html

Offline gryphon

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2015, 09:27:36 PM »


Fixt.

Offline linux203

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2015, 09:45:01 PM »
I respect your personal choice to legally carry a firearm.

Again, I fully uphold your right to legally carry a firearm.

Do you?  Your post history is littered with "I support the second amendment, but... "
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline freediver

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2015, 05:57:01 AM »
Mr Linus203: Yes, I do uphold your right to carry a firearm. Absolutely, positively, 100%. Here's what I don't uphold: that gun rights trump everyone's personal safety, and that unfettered access to firearms is always a good thing. I don't uphold the bullshit arguments and out and out lies that are perpetrated by certain pro-gun groups. I don't uphold that certain people who aren't into guns are automatically "wrong". I don't uphold that a "good guy with a gun" will always stop a "bad guys with a gun" because most of the time, that's a fantasy. I uphold that with the right to carry a firearm comes an incredible amount of personal responsibility that many gun owners do not demonstrate. I uphold that more guns does not improve public safety and there has NEVER been a demonstrated cause and effect of a society that was less violent with more guns. Across the globe, the reverse is true, again and again.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2015, 09:54:50 AM »
Here's what I don't uphold: that gun rights trump everyone's personal safety, and that unfettered access to firearms is always a good thing.

Here's what I don't uphold: That your irrational desire to feel safe trumps either my civil rights or my right to actually BE safe.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline gryphon

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2015, 10:57:06 AM »
I uphold that with the right to carry a firearm comes an incredible amount of personal responsibility that many gun owners do not demonstrate.

Nonsense!  Legal gun owners are statistically more law-abiding than police officers.  There are 350 million guns in this country (probably more) and over 100 million gun owners.  What percentage of gun owners do not demonstrate personal responsibility?

The illegal alien who murdered the woman in San Francisco used a federal agent's pistol.

Go pedal your gun control agitprop somewhere else.

Offline part deux

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2015, 11:17:26 AM »
I uphold that with the right to carry a firearm comes an incredible amount of personal responsibility that many gun owners do not demonstrate.

How many police officers have left their firearms in public restrooms... and gotten a free pass from the prosecutor?

There are 43 disqualifying misdemeanors for a CPL, that are NOT dis-qualifiers for a Police Officer.

Offline freediver

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2015, 08:39:21 PM »
Mr Gryphon: What statistics are you using when you say that gun owners are statistically more law abiding than police officers? I've never seen statistical analysis for that particular facet. There are two basic facts that show that gun owners aren't very responsible: the number of gun deaths per year in our country, and the number of guns flowing from legal owners to illegal owners. So I beg to differ on that count.
As far as police officers versus gun owners: at least police officers have been vetted to a certain extent and have had to demonstrate competency on a range. The same cannot be said for gun owners. Having said that, police officers are human and do occasionally screw up.
As far as peddling my "gun control agitprop" elsewhere, good one! I had to look that one up. But no, I won't. I am a gun owner and I have an opinion, which is what these forums are for. If it differs from yours, I'm sorry. But I will speak my mind. If you don't like it, you can always seek another forum. Good luck.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Islands, Churches, and Guns
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2015, 10:00:02 PM »
Firearms violations by police officers are higher than concealed carry permit holders.  The rate of all crimes committed by police is 6 and 10 times higher than concealed carry permit holders in Texas and Florida (examples).

Report from the Crime Prevention Research Center
Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States
July 9, 2014

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Concealed-Carry-Permit-Holders-Across-the-United-States.pdf