Author Topic: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case  (Read 9121 times)

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Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2015, 01:17:56 PM »
I just messaged Johann.  He said that he isn't going to appeal and he is going to keep the money we've donated for his appeal and pay back MCRGO.

So now we know - the ruling by Judge Neff stands & MCRGO gets the $2k+ To cover their cost (Mr. Dulan is also board member there).  So basically, it's open season on open carriers for the time being in the W. MI Federal district.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 03:03:10 PM by Glock9mmOldStyle »
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2015, 01:24:12 PM »
I will add (not bashing)- it would have been nice if Johann would have stated clearly that: if the money he asked for $5,000 wasn't given by (x) time, that he would then drop the appeal & use it to pay back MCRGO.
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline gryphon

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2015, 02:10:28 PM »
Yep, especially since MCRGO is apparently so flush with money that they can afford to pay their officers a salary.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2015, 02:14:21 PM »
So basically, it's open season on open carriers for the time being in the 6th Federal district.

Did you mean Western District of Michigan?

If and only if you get a judge like Neff who is willing to grasp at any claim that the open carrier was doing something extraordinarily which would cause any reasonable cop to detain them.

Otherwise, the 6th Circuit ruling in Northrup controls, which says it is not open season on a guy walking his wife and their poodle just because he happens to be lawfully OCing.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2015, 02:35:16 PM »
Did you mean Western District of Michigan?


If and only if you get a judge like Neff who is willing to grasp at any claim that the open carrier was doing something extraordinarily which would cause any reasonable cop to detain them.

Otherwise, the 6th Circuit ruling in Northrup controls, which says it is not open season on a guy walking his wife and their poodle just because he happens to be lawfully OCing.

Sorry - yes at this time this case (should) only affect the W. District of MI.


I would hope you are right. :) However knowing what I do about police and the prosecutors (that work for them, instead of Justice), I will say that police will go with the ruling that suits them the best: judge Neffs ruling.
We have two ruling from the same circuit that conflict with each other - thus leaving a pick & choose option open for prosecutors...never a good thing in my opinion. :(
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 03:00:44 PM by Glock9mmOldStyle »
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2015, 06:42:34 PM »
I don't think it even effects our district as precedent.
Maybe as a road map to other judges who want to ignore the 6th Circuit precedent set in Northrup the way Neff did...
But as precedent, the 6th circuit court of appeals ruling overrides anything the district courts within the circuit have done.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline TeMpTiN

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2015, 09:46:39 PM »
This pisses me off. I donated money towards an appeal even though I do not like Dulan.

I have sworn not to do anything to fund MCRGO because they routinely back bad legislation and I do not believe they remotely share my interests.

I feel cheated, robbed if you will, and this makes me very shy about supporting another case in this manner. In fact I do not think I will, I will no only give to MGO and MOC's legal funds where there will have to be accountability for the moneys use.

I also think the 6th should give Neff a kicking, it needs to happen every now and then to keep activist judges in line.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2015, 09:53:52 PM »
I also think the 6th should give Neff a kicking, it needs to happen every now and then to keep activist judges in line.

Several people gave an overpriced brick of .22s, or in one man's case 20 bricks, so see this though.
I suspect some of them want to see GR and Moe held accountable.
I also suspect the majority of the donors want to see Neff get b***h-slapped in a published appellate opinion. I'd be quite unhappy if I paid $1000 for that and didn't get to watch it.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline MP Miller

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2015, 11:23:41 PM »
I am also pissed my $100 will go to MCRGO.

Is it too late to dispute a credit card charge?
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Offline Scandiacus

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2015, 11:49:17 PM »
Is it too late to dispute a credit card charge?

I'm wondering the same thing.  Deffert's not using the money he was generously given for what he claimed it would be used, and is instead using it to pay off his personal legal fees to MCRGO (if I'm understanding the situation correctly).  Regardless of a person's feelings toward MCRGO, that just strikes me as wrong.

Offline TheQ

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2015, 03:38:15 AM »
I suppose he could be sued for breach of contract. The money was donated for a specific purpose. In accepting that donation he agreed to be bound to using it for that purpose.

It's no different than if you donated to the MOC legal fund and we used it to buy a weekend get-away for BoD members (or even tri-folds).
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2015, 03:41:21 AM »

I am also pissed my $100 will go to MCRGO.

Is it too late to dispute a credit card charge?

That may be a viable avenue of redress available to people who feel wronged. You generally have 69-90 days to dispute a charge.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2015, 07:04:20 AM »
I'm wondering the same thing.  Deffert's not using the money he was generously given for what he claimed it would be used, and is instead using it to pay off his personal legal fees to MCRGO (if I'm understanding the situation correctly).  Regardless of a person's feelings toward MCRGO, that just strikes me as wrong.

I hadn't thought about it that way, but if the donations are being used to repay personal debt, then it's no different from having a fundraiser for a specific purpose and then diverting the proceeds to pay down your own mortgage.

I guess it would depend on whether Johann actually owes MCRGO money, or if they donated to his court battle and he's returning the favor by taking funds raised for a defunct charitable purpose and giving them to MCRGO for another charitable purpose.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline bigt8261

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2015, 09:09:37 AM »
Johann told me that the money is being used to repay debts. A debt to MCRGO for fronting the money for the case, and a debt to Steve. He did tell me a long time ago that MCRGO would be fronting the money for him. I believe the amount was 3k, but I don't specifically remember.

I'm not sure if this changes things for anyone. It's just what I've been told.

Offline Scandiacus

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2015, 11:33:21 AM »
I suppose he could be sued for breach of contract. The money was donated for a specific purpose. In accepting that donation he agreed to be bound to using it for that purpose.

It's no different than if you donated to the MOC legal fund and we used it to buy a weekend get-away for BoD members (or even tri-folds).

Yeah, it's essentially fraudulent.  I hope he'll reconsider refunding the money, but I'm not going to wait for that.  My credit card allows 120 days to dispute a charge and I'll be initializing that process right away.  If he'd asked for money to refund the original legal fees after the fact, that would have been one thing (though I likely wouldn't have donated in that instance; I don't believe in retroactive fund-raising).  And if I'd wanted my money to go toward MCRGO, I would have donated it to them directly and gotten a membership in return.

Offline TheQ

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2015, 11:48:17 AM »
Something I've become aware of since my last post:

The money he paid back to MCRGO was effectively to pay back a loan he owed MCRGO.


Also consider looking if GoFundMe has any refund options for if the money was used improperly.

I never saw the GoFundMe page. What did it say the $ would be used for?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline gryphon

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2015, 12:28:51 PM »
Money to be used for appeal. The page is still up and he's still taking new donations.

Offline TheQ

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2015, 01:27:55 PM »
What URL?
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Offline Hammurabi

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Offline TheQ

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Re: Judge backs Grand Rapids in Deffert case
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2015, 01:46:40 PM »
There's a "Report for fraud" button. If say soliciting funds for one thing and using them for another qualifies.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).