Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries

[TucTom]

Hey guys notice that freediver is still not actually answering my question and is going sideways again.

Freediver you wrote "The fact of the matter is that guns are going from legal hands to illegal hands through us, the gun owners. " and I will ask what exactly is it you propose that will not hurt the legal gun owner?

[m.marino]

Mr m.marino: sorry to burst your bubble but: British-no, south Philly raised-yes. Mole-no, ex-military and law enforcement-yes. Liberal-no, conservative-no, American-yes. Difference of opinion with some of the Forum participants-yes. Over the course of this thread I have cited numbers, examples, and presented logical arguments. I have refrained from any name calling during those discussions because I think it cheapens the discussion. If you can show me examples of my resorting to name calling I would like to see it.

You have on more than one point used innuendo and statement of your personal experience and professional positions to uphold your opinion while not providing a simple citation once. Not once, I went back and triple check as a good cop will do (Form USAR MP). Sorry but that don't fly. You have stated numbers and that you got them from such source but not the source. Three other members of this forum have given direct links to their data to remove any doubt on how they came about the information, you no.

As far as the rest of your post about Mein Kampf and Latin and schoolchildren, I confess I don't follow your reasoning so I'm not sure how to respond. We were discussing gun policy, and how hundreds of thousands of weapons are stolen or illegally purchased each year in the U.S. And what some fixes might be. Some of my recommendations were met with skepticism. So be it. The fact of the matter is that guns are going from legal hands to illegal hands through us, the gun owners. If we profess to be responsible gun owners, then I think it falls to us to try and come up with solutions that work. Remaining in denial, or blaming someone else, only makes the situation worse.

Yes gun policy, which in Mien kampf was one of the items that was described as a need to remove from society so as to remove the ability of those who do not agree to upset or cause social unrest. The Reichstag fire shortly after the DAP gained a majority. Which saw rather wide sweeping laws put into effect to insure the safety of Germans (Outlawing the ownership of certain types of guns without a permit was one of the first). The point in that being that the discussion is being lower to emotional levels only, fear and death are being used very well in the mix. 

So, bottom line: if you don't like my solutions to the movement of weapons into the wrong hands, then come up with your own. Propose solutions that work for ALL Americans, not just the ones who like carrying guns.

Freediver you have not answered nor responded to questions of your proposal by myself and one other member, yet have respond to posts after that. It puts you a rather selective and bad light. I live in Scotland which has one of the highest violent crime areas in the UK and by population, in outright violence, the UK out does the US. According to multiple sources in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30081682
http://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmic/news/news-feed/victims-let-down-by-poor-crime-recording/

If it is need to continue UNODC (UN Office on Drugs and Crime) Gives even more data and Eurostat has to Break the UK into four groups and the UK is still number 8 (England and Wales) and Number 10 (Scotland) and that is with a well known under reporting. That is violent crime NOT murder. Where Scotland ranks at eight and Northern Ireland at number 10.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Crime_trends_in_detail#Violent_crime

When looking at the issue of violent crime and murder one also needs to look at the social issues that drive these problems. Also at punishment systems (whether in the code of law or society custom) that work and those that don't. Your rather simple statement of blaming gun owners for guns getting to criminals has all ready been address in an earlier post on this thread which rather close to the questions I first asked in trying to keep this to a single point and resolving that before moving on to the next. I personally don't agree with the gun laws in the UK and is one of many reasons that we are moving. While I have a completely clean record and could have the proper vault put into the house we live in, because it is within the radius of a high risk zone, I have been advised NOT to even start the paperwork until we either move to the country or out of it completely (we are working on the later). As far as to how to deal with violent criminals, and a solution for this type of crime? I tend to support the Greek Patriarch Dracos. It was not nice, but made it rather expensive for those who chose that route. So please give foundation and good data for this opinion you put forward as a complete solution and we will see whether it stands the test of a chain of logic test or not. If you are not willing to support your case then you risk the position of beings seen as not have much substance.


Michael

[darrenlobo]

Scary guy! Now don't be like the gun rights haters & think that an anecdote proves your case. It's a combination of upbringing & social dynamics that turn someone into a monster like that. The fact that the criminal "justice" system is overwhelmed & had to let him go just shows that we can't depend on it. Stop fantasizing about it becoming fast, just, effective, & efficient. It's the govt, it doesn't work.

[gryphon]

That graphic came from gun-rights haters.  It's from The Trace, the new Bloomberg-funded anti-gun site.  But it just shows that criminals are going to be criminals, and people that are close to them but still "legal" will aid them in getting weapons.  So the only way to prevent legal people from illegally giving weapons and ammo to prohibited people is to stop all weapons and ammunition sales to everyone.  Ban all guns and ammo.  Period.

Yet most Leftists state they don't want to do that.

Yet even that won't stop criminals from committing crime and violence.  So the innocent will be left to suffer at the hands of the wolves of society.

[freediver]

Mr tuctom: you ask what I propose that will not "hurt" the gun owner. Here we part ways on the definition of "hurt". I am looking for solutions to choke off the supply of guns to illegal or "crazy" hands. I am not proposing to "hurt" gun owners. By the figures posted by myself and others, over 220,000 guns PER YEAR are lost or stolen. How do we attack that number? Gun safes are one way. Not a perfect solution, as you pointed out. Universal background checks, also nipping at a small part of the problem. Straw buyers and corrupt gun dealers appear to be the biggest part of the problem. How do we deal with that? Go after the problem. Throw the book at corrupt dealers. Put them in prison, not just pull their license. Track the straw buyers. Which means keeping records and fully funding the ATF and allowing them to do their job. Prosecute LEOS who allow guns to fall into the wrong hands. This is not a "sound bite solution" sort of problem. We need to completely alter the gun culture in the US. It requires a multi-faceted, complex approach, and it will not happen overnight. If we are truly committed to making our streets safe, as we should be, then some of these ideas need to be part of the solution. Personally I don't think any of these "hurt" a gun owner. I would think that as gun owners, we would want to be part of the solution. Use our expertise to push for solutions that actually work, not foolish gun bans that haven't worked in the past.

[freediver]

Mr m. marino: Again, I confess that I can't quite follow your train of thought. You mention a lot of historical references, yet I don't see how they apply to our discussion. No one in this forum is proposing a ban on guns, least of all me. I am proposing a higher standard of ownership among US, and some more efficient government involvement in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals or crazies.

Since you claim to live in Scotland and have to deal with the UK guns laws, might I suggest that you post those shortcomings on a different thread? It truly is apples and oranges between the US and the UK. I just got back from Japan. I admire the country and its people. But I would never propose Japanese style gun laws in the US. We are two completely different cultures.

Best of luck!

[darrenlobo]

Gryphon, freedriver, TucTom, M.Marino,

This emphasis on law enforcement as a solution is misguided. It can help somewhat reduce the murder rate but since it doesn't address the root causes law enforcement is more like a band aid than a cure. Matter of fact, I would argue that by enforcing things like the war on drugs law enforcement helps create crime rather than reduce it. Today, we live in a world of the progressives’ creation, somewhere halfway between socialism and liberty. It is a volatile mixture. It is a world increasingly ruled by force; force wielded by a powerfully armed government. Whether it is the force of the income tax, the force of compulsory education, the force of regulation, or the force of law enforcement the effects are clear to all willing to see: a society becoming sicker and more aggressive. We’ve sunk a long way since 1850 when a Frenchman, Frederick Bastiat, wrote in his book  “The Law”:

Is there any need to offer proof that this odious perversion of the law is a perpetual source of hatred and discord; that it tends to destroy society itself? If such proof is needed, look at the United States. There is no country in the world where the law is kept more within its proper domain: the protection of every person's liberty and property. As a consequence of this, there appears to be no country in the world where the social order rests on a firmer foundation.

They’re sure not talking about us like that in France anymore! Progressivism has failed to achieve its lofty ideals. Instead it has created our present situation of crime and murder, war and empire. It is this failure that the advocates of gun control want to cover up. Instead of facing reality they want to blame guns for the problems the implementation of their ideas has created. Before anyone gets too smug, let me emphasize that both political parties have adopted the progressive ideology. Today’s so-called liberals and conservatives advocate different degrees and different aspects of it, but advocate it they do. It’s past time for both sides to realize that the killing will only end, society will only heal by turning it away from being ruled by force and toward voluntary interaction between its members. Liberty is the answer. Implementing it means change at the institutional level, disarming the government and keeping the people not only armed but also organized to defend themselves.

[freediver]

Well spoken, Mr darrenlobo!

[darrenlobo]

Well spoken, Mr darrenlobo!

Thanks, I got most of it from this article I wrote a few years ago

Progressivism’s Violent World
http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2013/01/progressivisms-violent-world.html

[TucTom]

I am not proposing to "hurt" gun owners.

Then please explain.

Gun safes are one way. Not a perfect solution, as you pointed out.

What is it you want to "make it perfect"? How do you propose that this is put into place? What would be your requirements to this proposed law?

Universal background checks, also nipping at a small part of the problem.

Okay I will admit I am not a guy who has or knows all of the numbers but being that background checks are already required for handguns and I would guess the majority of crimes are committed with a handgun. What would requiring background checks do? (oh yeah we already have them)

Straw buyers and corrupt gun dealers appear to be the biggest part of the problem. How do we deal with that? Go after the problem. Throw the book at corrupt dealers.

So you propose that the laws that are already in place are actually used? What would need to change? The Government, prosecutors etc not the law.

Track the straw buyers. Which means keeping records and fully funding the ATF and allowing them to do their job.

Are you saying give the ATF more money because they can't but more importantly DON"T already do their job? Please explain fully just what you would want to see.

Prosecute LEOS who allow guns to fall into the wrong hands.

Once again the laws are already there. Who's fault is it that the prosecutions are not happening? Please explain what you want that is different.

We need to completely alter the gun culture in the US.

This I believe is your true belief.

If we are truly committed to making our streets safe, as we should be, then some of these ideas need to be part of the solution.

Being committed to making the streets safe should not start with "gun control" because criminals aren't people just like you and I. Then they get a gun and magically become criminals. The are already criminals who then get a gun however they can. And I believe there isn't anything you or I can do to stop it. Think "war on drugs"!!!

Personally I don't think any of these "hurt" a gun owner.

Explain all of the points and I will then judge whether your ideas "hurt" gun owners.

I would think that as gun owners, we would want to be part of the solution. Use our expertise to push for solutions that actually work, not foolish gun bans that haven't worked in the past.

As gun owners we (I believe) are already part of the solution. By carrying we are telling criminals that we aren't going to take it. And they better think twice.

So before we move on with more points lets now address each of these points first.
Thank you.

[CitizensHaveRights]

Japan has reached the point at which I think LE makes a difference there.

In USA, you kill somebody because realistically or not, you think you're going to get away with it.

In Japan, everybody knows that defendant's rights are null, and you WILL be convicted, so if you kill somebody there, it's because it's worth it. Very few people really want somebody dead badly enough to willingly go to prison for it.

[part deux]

Why is everybody over complicating this

Make illegal gun sales {more} illegal
Make illegal murder {more} illegal

There, I solved the problem

[darrenlobo]

Japan has reached the point at which I think LE makes a difference there.

In USA, you kill somebody because realistically or not, you think you're going to get away with it.

In Japan, everybody knows that defendant's rights are null, and you WILL be convicted, so if you kill somebody there, it's because it's worth it. Very few people really want somebody dead badly enough to willingly go to prison for it.

I would argue that in Japan it's the social dynamics that keep murder rates down. Under such circumstances it's easy for LEOs to look good. They may take the credit but it's not true.

[darrenlobo]

Why is everybody over complicating this

Make illegal gun sales {more} illegal
Make illegal murder {more} illegal

There, I solved the problem

We already have the highest incarceration rate in the world. How many more do you want to lock up?

[part deux]

We already have the highest incarceration rate in the world. How many more do you want to lock up?

Apparently I didn't drip enough sarcasm in my post???

But, since you brought it up, and a total off topic response, end the war on drugs.  Make prison someplace nobody wants to return to.

[CitizensHaveRights]

IIRC, the top 2% of violent offenders are responsible for 80-90% of the major violent crimes. And they all have extensive police records.
Seems like it would make sense to chase the drug offenders out of prison and lock up the ultraviolent ones instead.

[darrenlobo]

Apparently I didn't drip enough sarcasm in my post???

A wiseguy, nuk, nuk, nuk

But, since you brought it up, and a total off topic response, end the war on drugs.

Actually, it's not off topic it's part of the solution.

[linux203]

We already have the highest incarceration rate in the world. How many more do you want to lock up?

But, since you brought it up, and a total off topic response, end the war on drugs.

End the war on marijuana.  Release everyone whose only conviction is marijuana related.  Marijuana poses similar risks to society that alcohol does.

By far, users of marijuana are functional members of society, able to hold a job and purchase their drug.  Most other "hardcore" drugs cause people to become non-functional and unemployed.  They turn to other crimes to support the addiction.

Fewer incarcerated non-violent offenders makes room to remove violent (and statistically more likely) offenders from society.

[darrenlobo]

1

[TheQ]

By far, users of marijuana are functional members of society, able to hold a job and purchase their drug.  Most other "hardcore" drugs cause people to become non-functional and unemployed.  They turn to other crimes to support the addiction.

The argument for banning marijuana was it is a gateway drug. For most users that I know, this isn't the case. There's one former "hardcore" drug user that I know that says marijuana was a gateway for him.

I agree other drugs can lead people to crime to support those addictions, shouldn't we simply punish the crime committed? Why punish someone for something that in and of itself directly harms no one else.

If the drug use leads to child neglect, criminalize and punish the child neglect (oh, wait, the government already has). If it leads to crimes against persons, criminalize the crimes against persons (oh, wait...). If it leads to crime against property, criminalize the crimes against property (oh, wait...).

Seriously, these same arguments are used by the gun control crowd. Our answer? Don't criminalize possession, criminalize the acts of abusive possession/use. Why would you suggest drugs be treated any differently?