Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries

[autosurgeon]

Homogeneous society's such as Japan is not a good comparison to the United States.

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[gryphon]

They won't be satisfied until they can carry in a church, in the legislature, in a bar (what possible good can come of that), in a school.

News flash--you CAN carry in all those places now.

[gryphon]

But year in, year out we see the results of poor personal responsibility: stolen weapons and illegal firearms sales

I think we should make illegal gun sales illegal.  I think we should make stealing illegal.

[gryphon]

I'll be visiting Japan a few times in August. I have learned to appreciate the fact that they have almost no crime. They don't have to lock their bikes or their cars, and I could walk around any major city in Japan at any hour of the night and be perfectly safe. So maybe, just maybe, they're doing something better than we are. We could learn from that.

What do you propose doing so that certain segments of our society stop committing crime and we become as "safe" as Japan?  For the purposes of this discussion, let's pretend guns didn't exist since the majority of crime is committed without guns.

[CitizensHaveRights]

What do you propose doing so that certain segments of our society stop committing crime and we become as "safe" as Japan?  For the purposes of this discussion, let's pretend guns didn't exist since the majority of crime is committed without guns.

Simply finish doing away with the rights of suspects, and get the capture/conviction rate up over 90% like Japan.
In Japan, you commit a serious crime because it's worth the punishment.
In USA, you commit a serious crime because you don't expect to be caught or punished.

[gryphon]

In USA, you commit a serious crime because you don't expect to be caught or punished.

Yep, and if caught you know the prosecutor will plead the case down so that it doesn't go to trial and clog the court system.  If everyone demanded a trial, our court system would grind to a halt.  That's why we have career criminals out on the street.

[CitizensHaveRights]

Plea bargaining:
A 'system of equal justice' designed to insure that the innocent and the guilty receive equal punishments.

But, in practice, it fails in its goals for 'democratic equality of outcome' because the innocent don't show the expected level of remorse and get punished extra for not being apologetic enough.

[freediver]

Mr gryphon, you miss my point. Those are illegal. Yet we, the gun owners, are still doing it. Assume every initial gun purchase is legal. How do guns make it into the wrong hands? They are either stolen, or they are sold illegally. By gun owners.

[gryphon]

Well then by golly lets make it illegal for a gun owner to sell a gun illegally!

What do you want to do, give them double secret probation?  It is already illegal!

[TucTom]

But at some point we have to admit that there is a problem with gun deaths and gun crime in this country, and do something about it. Saying NO to everything is not a solution.

Right. And as you and others here have pointed out lets make crime against the law!! I agree!

When did the whole thought of creating laws to replace common sense come about? As more laws are written to replace common sense the less people have to depend on theirs. Can't make a right turn on a red light (onto a 2 lane road) because people turning in front of you turn into the wrong (right not left) lane (Illegal already) cause an accident. What happens when the light that says "no turn on red" burns out? Who is now at fault the person breaking the law or the person breaking the law?

Adding more laws to make someone feel good is not a reason to create more laws. And admit it, based on your comments you clearly have an agenda and are here to find a way to at least put up a better argument then there currently is. You are "learning to debate".

[freediver]

Mr gryphon: Here's the dilemma: If it is already illegal to sell guns to criminals, yet gun owners continue to do so, how do we change that? How do we choke off the supply of guns flowing from legal hands to illegal hands? How do we change our gun culture from one far too casual to one of more sober responsibility? I've suggested a few ways. If those aren't to your liking, then suggest some solutions!

[freediver]

Mr Tuctom: As I've said before, one of our goals as a society should be to prevent guns from falling into the hands of the criminal or the mentally unbalanced. Since every initial purchase is (or should be) a legal one, how do we prevent a legal gun from falling into an illegal hand? Look in the mirror. those weapons are coming FROM legal gun owners. So how do we change that? How do we improve upon public safety? It falls to us, the legal gun owners, to change that dynamic.

As far as me having an agenda, you're right, I do. An agenda of sanity and reasonableness. An agenda to change our gun culture to one of more sober responsibility. An agenda of getting rid of BS arguments and outright lies and having a discussion based on facts, not fiction. An agenda of changing our gun culture from within, not having something we don't like rammed down our throats from other factions.

As far as "learning to debate", I don't think so. I'm well into my 50s. I think I can hold my own in a discussion.

[gryphon]

Mr gryphon: Here's the dilemma: If it is already illegal to sell guns to criminals, yet gun owners continue to do so, how do we change that? I've suggested a few ways.

I don't remember you suggesting any ways to stop gun owners from illegally selling guns to prohibited persons (e.g., felons or underage).  Maybe I am mis-remembering, though.  Robyn Anderson legally purchased guns and then turned them over to the two underage Columbine shooters.  Neither the federal government nor the state of Colorado charged her or prosecuted her.

Maybe the government should enforce our current laws instead of making additional ones.  Just a thought.

[TucTom]

Robyn Anderson legally purchased guns and then turned them over to the two underage Columbine shooters.  Neither the federal government nor the state of Colorado charged her or prosecuted her.

Dan I think freediver wants to make this more illegal

Or is freediver saying that criminals don't follow the laws so we need to make more laws that affect the non criminals more?

[CitizensHaveRights]

Or is freediver saying that criminals don't follow the laws so we need to make more laws that affect the non criminals more?

This^.
It's a psychotic desire to punish 80 million people who didn't kill anybody after the perp who did kill somebody is safely in prison.
What do you expect when somebody comes here to lecture us on "Commie Sense Gun Laws" to put an end to "Gun violence"?
I'll admit it threw me off guard a bit when he bought a membership. Maybe Bloomberg fronted him $20 for it.

[part deux]

Dan I think freediver wants to make this more illegal

Or is freediver saying that criminals don't follow the laws so we need to make more laws that affect the non criminals more?

Apparently the 20,000 + firearm laws we have on the books today are not stopping the criminal behavior, but ONE MORE LAW will fix the problem.

[freediver]

Mr gryphon: Actually I've suggested a couple of ways to stop the illegal transfer of weapons: universal background checks for all gun transfers, and mandatory locked storage for all firearms. There are several other things we could do.

Ms Anderson should have prosecuted under the law as being an accessory to murder. You're right, we should enforce the laws already on the books. Put the responsibility squarely on gun owners, where it belongs.

[freediver]

Mr part deux: Since you don't think any of my ideas will be effective, what would YOU do to stop the flow of guns into illegal or mentally incompetent hands? Those guns are coming from somewhere! They aren't just appearing out of thin air!

[freediver]

Mr citizenshaverights: I am always amused when people resort to name calling (commie sense gun laws). When they do that, it means they have nothing constructive to say. I put in my own 20 bucks because a: I'm a gun owner who believes in second amendment rights and b: I have some input to make on our gun culture. If you don't like my opinions, too bad for you. I don't particularly care for Mr Bloomberg and his politics. I think he's the kind of over-reaching politician we all need to be wary of.

He's also an example of why we all need to take the long view in this discussion. We have problems with gun deaths and gun criminality in our society. The general public grows ever more weary of death after death, massacre after massacre. If we gun owners continue to exist in denial, then eventually public opinion will change to the point where the Bloombergs of the world will have their way. Then legislation will be passed that we REALLY don't like.

We are the "experts". We are the ones who have a vested interest in how this all ends up. We are the ones who have the most to lose if the public opinion turns against us. So rather than hide behind the 2nd amendment and pat ourselves on the back, we need to be proactive. Engage ALL our citizens in a friendly, constructive way, not just the ones who agree with us.

[TucTom]

freediver, ever hear of "fast and furious"? What do you propose we do to prevent the US GOVERNMENT from not only knowingly allowing but encouraging illegal gun sales?

If you want to stop lets start at the top.

Also freediver I don't think citizenshaverights called you a name. He simply stated that "commie sense gun laws" is why you are here.