Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries

[darrenlobo]

Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries Is Deceitful

The problem with that limited comparison is the fact that many very poor countries are also very peaceful.

http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2015/06/murder-rates-why-comparing-united_29.html

[freediver]

Mr Darrenlobo: It's true. Many poor countries around the globe are peaceful, even more so than the US. It might have something to do with the fact that the average person doesn't have the discretionary income to buy a gun, and has no need to do so.

[CitizensHaveRights]

http://bearingarms.com/thug-culture-continues-take-lives-gun-violence-myth-persists/

[TucTom]

http://bearingarms.com/thug-culture-continues-take-lives-gun-violence-myth-persists/

This says a lot "mayor, of course, blames guns for these crimes, not the violent nature of thug culture itself." It seems to NEVER be the fault of a way of life. Lets fix this.

[gryphon]

Would you be satisfied if our rates were more comparable to Western Europe?  If you took blacks out of the equation, our homicide rates would be on par with Germany and lower than France. And we own WAY more guns than they do. (there are 350,000,000 guns in the US).

Homicide Offender Rate/100,000 by Race in US:

3.4 – White
25.8 – Black
3.2 – Other

What about just violence in general?

Assaults
Definition: 'Assault' means physical attack against the body of another person resulting in serious bodily injury; excluding indecent/sexual assault; threats and slapping/punching. 'Assault' leading to death should also be excluded.
 
Rate/100,000       2003     2004     2005     2006     2007     2008     2009

USA                    294.9    288.2    290.5    291.8    286.4    276.1    262.2
England/Wales    862.8    967.3  1,013.7    939.4    832.9    769.9    729.8
Scotland          1,232.5  1,584.9  1,542.8  1,655.1  1,545.9  1,545.7  1,487.2

Now homicides, yes, we are 4x higher than England (1.2 England v. 5 for US). But you are talking a couple of points per hundred thousand people. Compare that to physical assault resulting in serious bodily injury: 262 for US v. 730 for England or 1,487 for Scotland!

So you think 5 v. 1.2 is horrible for the US, but you are okay with Great Britain having 500-1,200 more violent assaults for the same group?

The difference in our homicide rates is less than 4 (per 100,000).

The difference in our violent assault rates is 1,225 (per 100,000).

4, bad; 1,225 good? 

Gun control advocates are always cherry picking stats. They have to because their arguments are nonsensical and based on a ridiculous set of presuppositions. If we walled off a few two square mile plots in several American cities our homicide rate would be practically nothing after the inhabitants killed each other off. The rest of us are very well behaved, thank you very much.

(I pulled these numbers a couple of years ago for something I wrote, and they do change slightly from year to year, but the overall trends are identical).

Mr. freediver, you weren't really afraid of the gun owner at Subway, were you?  If you were truly afraid you would have left.

[TucTom]

Dan you ruined it, throwing out complete and factual numbers and all. 

[freediver]

Mr Gryphon: Before we start calling your numbers complete and factual, I would like to know what information source you are using for said numbers. There are a lot of numbers being thrown around out there. Most of them are incorrect. I try to use FBI and CDC numbers since they usually aren't politicized.
Second, you make exactly the point I have been talking about. If there is such a "thug culture" (as opposed to rednecks, anti-social militiamen, bullies with guns, domestic abusers, etc), then maybe one of the things we should be working for very hard is to stifle the flow of guns from legal hands to "thug" hands. That is key. Assuming every initial firearm purchase is a legal one, how do we stop these firearms from getting into the wrong hands?
As far as the gun owner in Subway, no, I wasn't scared. Just apprehensive and keeping my eye on him. Because I had no idea as to his mental state, his legality, his competence, or his level of intoxication. Should I have to consider such things when I go out for a sandwich?
Your comment "took the blacks out of the equation" is one of the more racist things I've seen in a discussion. Some how I don't think "black thugs" are responsible for all the firearms deaths in our nation.

[linux203]

I try to use FBI and CDC numbers since they usually aren't politicized.

You do realize that both of those organizations are ran by bureaucrats....

Thomas R. Frieden, the Director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), was appointed by President Barack Obama in 2009.

James Brien Comey, Jr., the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), was appointed by President Barack Obama in 2013.

[CitizensHaveRights]

I don't generally trust the Feral Bureau of Instigation, but AFAIK, their compilation of crime statistics is honest.

The feeding of stats to the Fibbies by local departments might be lackadaisical or even deliberately slanted though.  Police chiefs are political accessories to the mayors, and sometimes the mayors have a political need for crimes stats to trend in a certain direction.

[linux203]

I don't generally trust the Feral Bureau of Instigation, but AFAIK, their compilation of crime statistics is honest.

The feeding of stats to the Fibbies by local departments might be lackadaisical or even deliberately slanted though.  Police chiefs are political accessories to the mayors, and sometimes the mayors have a political need for crimes stats to trend in a certain direction.

They are honestly reporting inaccuracies.  Chicago exemplifies your second statement.

[mosnar87]

Snip ...Should I have to consider such things when I go out for a sandwich?...

Regardless of visible weapons, the answer is a resounding yes, you should always be evaluating the threat level of the people in your immediate vicinity, at least to some extent. Personal responsibility is the price for freedom.

[gryphon]

Mr Gryphon: Before we start calling your numbers complete and factual, I would like to know what information source you are using for said numbers.

My data come from the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics (homicide breakdown by race) and the violent assault rates from the UNODC.

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/data.html

[gryphon]

Your comment "took the blacks out of the equation" is one of the more racist things I've seen in a discussion. Some how I don't think "black thugs" are responsible for all the firearms deaths in our nation.

Not racist at all.  Read the FBI white paper on homicide.  It talks about race.  Or you can call the FBI racists.  The numbers don't lie.  Blacks are 1/8 the population yet commit homicide eight times more than whites or Asians, etc.  That's 64 times more violent.  Feel free to look at other crime if you want.  Use the FBI numbers and read their conclusions in their published pdf reports. 

People try to compare our society with that of Japan and Europe, but we aren't the same.  Japan's suicide rate dwarfs ours, yet they have no guns.  The homicide rate of non-blacks (whites and others) in America is on par or lower than that of countries like Germany and France.  The overall violence in the UK is much greater than America. 

Europe is much more homogeneous than America.  Given that and America's laws, people should be lauding the U.S. as a model for societal behavior, not condemning it.  If you gave our laws and our societal makeup to any other first world country they'd probably be in chaos.
 
Homicide is a very tiny part of overall crime.  Statistically it's nothing more than a rounding error in even violent assaults.

[gryphon]

I had no idea as to his mental state, his legality, his competence, or his level of intoxication. Should I have to consider such things when I go out for a sandwich?

It's the price of living in a free society.  You don't know that about anyone in line in front of you.  Ever.

Over 10,000 people are killed annually due to alcohol-impaired driving crashes.  One-third of all traffic-related deaths in the United States is the result of alcohol.  Almost 300,000 were injured in drunk driving crashes in 2012.  29.1 million people have admitted to driving under the influence of alcohol.  The cost to society in health care and lost productivity due to alcohol can be measured in the billions of dollars.  According to the CDC, $223.5 billion to be exact.

More than 480,000 people die annually due to smoking.  That doesn't include cancers from smokeless tobacco.

If America really cared about people dying and all the other ill effects on society we'd abolish tobacco and alcohol tomorrow.  But we don't because we acknowledge that's the price of living in a free society.

[gryphon]

That seemed to shut him up.

[freediver]

Sorry Mr Gryphon, but your posts did not "shut me up". Since we are having a discussion, I'm not sure why you would want to shut me up. Work and chores were more of a priority the last couple of days. I've got some free time today to reply.

I will take a look at your crime statistics and reply in a separate post if I need to.

As far as the racism remark, here's why: the issue of gun deaths and criminality is not a black problem, or a white problem, or a conservative problem, or a liberal problem, or a young problem, or an old problem. It's an American problem. Every year we lose tens of thousands of people to death by firearm. WE do, the citizens of this nation. That means all of us, not just the white ones or the black ones. The black citizens you mentioned live in this country just like you and I. They live under the same laws, walk the same streets, and deserve the same respect. If there is a problem with gun violence among the black community in America, then it's a problem we ALL share. So please don't put yourself in your ivory "white" tower and point fingers at our fellow citizens. If you see an issue with gun violence in a community, which you seem to do when you quote crime statistics, then perhaps you as a responsible gun owner should step up and start being part of the solution.

That's what I'm talking about. We are not talking about alcohol, or smoking, or anything else. This is a forum concerning firearms. I, a fellow gun owner, see a problem with the lackadaisical approach to gun ownership in our country. I see a problem with guns making it into the hands of criminals or the mentally unbalanced. I see an intolerant disregard by gun enthusiasts for the concerns of their fellow citizens. I think we can do better. I'll return to my original contention: Assuming every gun purchase is a legal one, how do we stop guns from ending up into the hands of criminals, no matter what their skin color? If you want to point a finger at someone responsible, look in the mirror. Those guns are flowing from legal hands, which is us, the gun owners.

There's a difference between living in a free society and living in one that is overly saturated with guns. A free society implies that I can walk the streets without constantly worrying about my personal safety or being "on guard". A society that requires me to always carry a gun and be "at the ready" is just tyranny of a different flavor. Just as forcing your fellow citizens to live as you do, with a gun constantly at your side, is also a form of tyranny.

[freediver]

Mr Linus203: I'm not following your remark about bureaucrats being appointed by Mr Obama. could you clarify what you mean, please?

[TucTom]

Freediver, what would you propose for this scenario? Your PERSONAL house was broken into and YOUR HANDGUN which was locked with a gun lock in a locked case which was in a locked safe was stolen. YOUR gun was then used in a CRIME by a CRIMINAL. What do you want to happen to you??

What did universal "background checks" for all gun buyers do?

What did limiting sales do?

How long do we put YOU in jail?

Hey lets change this up a bit. YOUR HANDGUN which was locked with a gun lock in a locked case which was in a locked safe and your spouse is depressed. YOUR wife, knowing where you keep the keys takes the gun then uses in a CRIME, after all suicide is against the law. What do you want to happen to you??

Do you think gun owners don't go though these scenarios?
What after all of the laws YOU want passed do you propose we do then? Remember, you do think this will fix the problem we have with criminals and suicides

 

[part deux]

wow,

Suggesting there isn't a racial component when there's an extremely high relationship is disingenuous.

Suicides should not be part of the discussion.  People use all kinds of means to commit that criminal act.  Pills, autos, knives, etc.

More people die in auto accidents than ALL types of deaths due to firearms.  Why aren't you crying to ban cars?  Jumping to a conclusion, death doesn't bother you, only the form of death.

[gryphon]

As far as the racism remark, here's why: the issue of gun deaths and criminality is not a black problem, or a white problem, or a conservative problem, or a liberal problem, or a young problem, or an old problem. It's an American problem.

The problem could change in the future, you know.  We could have a large influx of radical Muslims, for example, and need to deal with that.  Sure, it'd be an American problem, but not one that existed before.  So some myopic people like you could say that we need to regulate pressure cookers, but in reality pressure cookers have never been a problem before.

If there is a problem with gun violence among the black community in America, then it's a problem we ALL share.

To some extent.

you as a responsible gun owner should step up and start being part of the solution.

It doesn't work that way.  We've tried it, over and over.  You think some white dude can walk into a black neighborhood and tell them how to behave?  LOL.  We could accomplish much through legislation, though.  Eliminate abortion and many assistance programs.  Yes, this would affect everyone, as it should.

We are not talking about alcohol, or smoking, or anything else.

If you are truly worried about untimely deaths in this country, you would naturally start with the highest causes. Murders using guns are nothing more than a rounding error on the number of deaths caused by tobacco.  If you really cared, you'd lobby for the ban of tobacco.

Assuming every gun purchase is a legal one, how do we stop guns from ending up into the hands of criminals, no matter what their skin color?

I think we should make a law stating that sales of handguns to felons is prohibited.  That'll solve the problem, right?  Just make a law.

If you want to point a finger at someone responsible, look in the mirror. Those guns are flowing from legal hands, which is us, the gun owners.

How many guns have you funneled into illegal hands?

There's a difference between living in a free society and living in one that is overly saturated with guns.

No there's not.  Not one iota of difference.

A free society implies that I can walk the streets without constantly worrying about my personal safety or being "on guard".

No it doesn't.  Who told you that?  You are grossly misinformed.  Even if guns were eliminated by some magic, what's to stop you or my 5'-2" 120 pound wife from being afraid of someone more powerful than her?