Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries

[gryphon]

Mr gryphon: Actually I've suggested a couple of ways to stop the illegal transfer of weapons: universal background checks for all gun transfers, and mandatory locked storage for all firearms. There are several other things we could do.

Neither of which stops the illegal sale or transfer of guns from FFLs or legal owners to prohibited persons which is what we were talking about and what I quoted.  Here's a reminder:

Mr gryphon: Here's the dilemma: If it is already illegal to sell guns to criminals, yet gun owners continue to do so, how do we change that? I've suggested a few ways.

I don't remember you suggesting any ways to stop gun owners from illegally selling guns to prohibited persons (e.g., felons or underage).

Talking to you is like talking to Nigel Tufnel.  My head hurts.

[gryphon]

freediver, also you keep saying we need universal background checks, but almost all gun crime is via handguns, and handguns ALREADY have universal background checks.  The only guns that don't are privately sold long guns, shotguns and rifles.  The number of long guns used in crimes are a tiny fraction of all gun crime, but even universal background checks wouldn't have prevented Columbine, Sandy Hook, or Aurora because all of those long guns were purchased legally.

You're tilting at windmills.  Just saying, "I know this won't work, but we have to do something!" won't cut it.  But you know what would work?  If more people carried guns!

[TheQ]

Mr freediver: excuse me -- I've not read every post in this thread but I have read enough to understand you think the force of Government (an organization which in many ways resembles a gang) should be used to restrict rights -- including gun rights. Might I kindly suggest this organization may not be the right one for you.

Be well.

[freediver]

Mr gryphon: since you claim that handguns are already covered by background checks, then how do you explain that handguns make it into the hands of criminals? Is it magic? Is it some sort of space-time warp? Please explain to me the conduit by which these guns flow.

Universal background checks are only part of the picture, and only part of the solution. I'm suggesting we need a more thorough makeover of our gun culture. I've made these suggestions throughout this thread. I'm not sure what else I can say.

Show me an example of a modern society that was improved with more guns. Not a theoretical example. A real one.

[freediver]

Mr TheQ: like you I share of healthy skepticism of government intervention. But I also see gun owners acting irresponsibly while dwelling in complete denial of the effects of their actions. Something has to change.

Since this is a gun rights organization, why wouldn't it be the right one for me? Perhaps you could explain further.

[gryphon]

Mr gryphon: since you claim that handguns are already covered by background checks

For some reason I was thinking that all handgun purchases had to be done through FFLs due to federal law (with some exceptions for family members), but I was wrong on that point.  Although many states do require it, or at least PD checks like Michigan.  The only other thing you've talked about is mandating 100 million gun owners purchase $3,000 gun safes (because anything under about $1,500 can be breached pretty quickly (60-90 seconds) with a battery powered saber saw as I previously told you).  And that's for large upright safes.  Those small bedside/under bed safes can both be easily stolen or even opened by a kid.  Almost every one of those are junk.

Even if the gun industry could make 1 million gun safes a year, it would take 100 years for everyone to even be able to buy one.

You haven't proposed one solid solution.  The one and only thing that would have a chance of working--and it would take decades--is an immediate, 100% ban on guns in America, and that isn't going to happen.

[thamm]

Mr gryphon: since you claim that handguns are already covered by background checks, then how do you explain that handguns make it into the hands of criminals? Is it magic? Is it some sort of space-time warp? Please explain to me the conduit by which these guns flow.

We covered this already. They are stolen, bought via straw purchasers, or a legal gun owner decides to become a criminal. Which of these scenarios would be prevented by a background check?

[TheQ]

Since this is a gun rights organization, why wouldn't it be the right one for me? Perhaps you could explain further.

Ummmm...because you propose government enforced gun control?

Andy Schor owns guns too. You are looking like an Andy Schor gun owner.

[Redwingsrule6971]

Mr. Freediver... How would making it mandatory that guns be in a locked box in my home make it harder for criminals to get guns? I'm pretty sure they'd just take the box.   I'm also pretty sure if I ask the rapist breaking into my home to wait a minute while I get my key to unlock my locked up gun so I can defend myself that he'd comply because he's an upstanding citizen.


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[freediver]

Mr gryphon: you point out one of the loopholes that I've suggested we close: universal background checks. Since they ARE NOT required for handgun purchases, and this is the weapon most used in crime, wouldn't this be a good place to start? Remember, since we are concerned about violent crime, we want to choke off the flow of guns to criminal hands.

Your comment about safes is way off the mark. I'm in the market for a new gun safe. The one I intend to buy at Cabela's costs $1100, is upright, has stainless steel bolts, and holds about 25 long guns and/or handguns. It can be bolted to the floor and weighs 500 pounds. No thief will be able to saw into it with a saber saw. If you know of a saber saw that can cut hardened steel, please let me know. I'd love to have something that tough for my woodworking projects. There are plenty of other safes out there, large and small, that would secure weapons. So cost and availability are not really reasons for not securing your firearms.

Remember, gun crime, accidental deaths, and mass shootings by the mentally ill are not problems we will solve in a week. It will take time. But we have to start somewhere. We need to change our gun culture from one of casualness to one of serious responsibility.

As far as a 100% ban on guns, no one is suggesting such a ludicrous proposition.

[freediver]

Mr thamm: So you're saying that legal gun owners are breaking the law and sending guns into the hands of criminals, how do you propose we stop this practice? We are all concerned about violent crime!

[freediver]

Mr TheQ: I confess that I don't follow the Andy Schor remark. Could you explain?

[freediver]

Mr redwingsrule6971: real simple, bolt the box to something solid. Easy to do. And there are plenty of safes out there that can be opened in about two seconds. They either have a biometric lock that opens only to your fingerprint, or a speed dial combination lock. We just bought the latter for our son in law for under $100. I used one in the FFDO program. They work great.

Do you have a problem in your neighborhood with rapists breaking into houses?

[Redwingsrule6971]

Mr. Freediver... It's actually Ms. Redwings6971. And yes, I do. Last summer there were two rapes in my neighborhood. Not my city...my neighborhood.

Those two seconds could cost me my life. As a woman, I have been in several instances where a gun could have helped me. This was before MI was shall issue. I was powerless.  I refuse to be a victim again. Locking up MY guns in MY home to protect MYSELF against criminals who have no regard for the law does nothing except make my odds of becoming a victim and statistic greater.




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[thamm]

There are only a few ways that a legal gun makes it into an illegal hand. One, they are stolen. Two, they are sold "off the record" with no background checks BY LEGAL GUN OWNERS. Third, they are purchased by legal straw buyers who then sell them into illegal hands (see number two).

If criminals are already side-stepping background checks (via theft and straw purchases), what will adding universal background checks accomplish?

Mr gryphon: since you claim that handguns are already covered by background checks, then how do you explain that handguns make it into the hands of criminals? Is it magic? Is it some sort of space-time warp? Please explain to me the conduit by which these guns flow.

Universal background checks are only part of the picture, and only part of the solution.

We covered this already. They are stolen, bought via straw purchasers, or a legal gun owner decides to become a criminal. Which of these scenarios would be prevented by a background check?

Mr thamm: So you're saying that legal gun owners are breaking the law and sending guns into the hands of criminals, how do you propose we stop this practice? We are all concerned about violent crime!

Yes, I am saying that some gun owners break the law. You have also said that some gun owners break the law. We agree on that point.

My disagreement comes with your solution of "universal background checks." I have twice asked you directly how a background check prevents any of the ways criminals get guns, since the background checks are already being avoided.

I quoted previous posts for your reference. I eagerly await your response.

[gryphon]

They either have a biometric lock that opens only to your fingerprint, or a speed dial combination lock. 

And most of those can be easily broken into.  There are lots of youtube videos showing how easily they are opened, often just by banging on them, including Stack-On and AMSEC (but the others seemed to far not all that much better).  Here are four being opened by a three year old, but there are others that open just about as easily.

We just bought the latter for our son in law for under $100.

Does he have it bolted down to the floor so no one cal walk off with it like you are telling all of us to do?

[Pond Scum]

Mr. Freediver..........   .......

Those two seconds could cost me my life. As a woman, I have been in several instances where a gun could have helped me. This was before MI was shall issue. I was powerless.  I refuse to be a victim again. Locking up MY guns in MY home to protect MYSELF against criminals who have no regard for the law does nothing except make my odds of becoming a victim and statistic greater.

Well stated from real experiences ... thanks for sharing.   

How an individual decides to protect themselves and how they choose to keep their firearms in their private home are INDIVIDUAL decisions.    How does a politician in Washington or Lansing or "My" City Hall, know what is best for me in my city, my neighborhood, my house, or on my body?   Let me make my own decisions about my personal protection and don't try to make me responsible for some criminal that decides to break the law.

[gryphon]

No thief will be able to saw into it with a saber saw. If you know of a saber saw that can cut hardened steel, please let me know.

I bet that hardened steel is only around the lock.  The body of the safe itself will be two sheets of cold rolled steel separated by fiber board that can be cut with a battery powered sawzall.  (That's what I meant when I wrote saber saw, a battery powered reciprocating saw with a metal blade).

[autosurgeon]

Bah I can cut any steel with a reciprocating saw and a diamond encrusted blade.

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[TheQ]

Mr TheQ: I confess that I don't follow the Andy Schor remark. Could you explain?

Andy Schor is the leader of the Michigan legislature gun control wing.

I'm sure Sara Brady owns guns too.