Author Topic: Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries  (Read 78702 times)

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Offline gryphon

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An electric Metabo will also easily cut steel plate. My millwright contractors do it every day. That you just need an 120v outlet. And they are cheap.

Offline mosnar87

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I use a 18V (battery) 4.5" angle grinder to cut and grind cold rolled steel in excess of 1/4" on a pretty regular basis. Compared to that, the steel that is used for most safes is tissue paper.
"I don't want to be someone that successfully defends himself with a pistol.  I want to be someone that never has to defend himself with a pistol."
-Bronson, 2013

"Its not what I do for a living, its that I want to keep doing it"
-Evil Creamsicle, 2010

Offline gryphon

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Didn't know they had battery powered angle grinders.  I've only seen 120v electric and pneumatic.  So there are a handful of different types of small, battery powered tools that easily will cut through the majority of gun safe bodies.

I've got a $1,000 safe, probably nearly identical to what freediver is going to purchase.  It will keep my grandkids out and the random smash and grab, but I have no illusions that it would keep out someone who knew I had guns and broke into my house to steal them.  They would come prepared with very modest battery powered tools that could easily cut right through the double steel walls.  And if not they could use my tools in my garage!

Here's what you can do with a $50 tool in under two minutes.  This is a Browning ProSteel safe.  Not cheap.  This "careless" gun owner lost all of his guns in a five minute home robbery.


Offline autosurgeon

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Best thing is to limit access to the safe. Make it hard to get to. But the fact is given enough time anything can be cracked.

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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline gryphon

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freediver, educate yourself.  You're welcome.


Offline m.marino

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Mr gryphon: since you claim that handguns are already covered by background checks, then how do you explain that handguns make it into the hands of criminals? Is it magic? Is it some sort of space-time warp? Please explain to me the conduit by which these guns flow.

Universal background checks are only part of the picture, and only part of the solution. I'm suggesting we need a more thorough makeover of our gun culture. I've made these suggestions throughout this thread. I'm not sure what else I can say.

Show me an example of a modern society that was improved with more guns. Not a theoretical example. A real one.

That is extremely simple and I will give you two. Israel and Switzerland. Then i will point out the increasing murder rate in the UK and Sweden that DOES NOT INVOVE GUNS. Then to pour a bit of salt on it I would point out that the UK has the Highest gun crime rate in Europe currently and that includes Eastern Europe where gun ownership is much more possible post Soviet era. Sir you argue the same crap that end in brit's being stripped of their guns unless you go through massive background checks and getting a handgun is near impossible. Yet the UK has a serious gun problem from a rather active blackmarket that has nothing to do with legal gun owners at all.

You make demands and accuse people of criminal intent or possible criminal intent and when called out for doing so blame the other person? Member or not you are a troll and and you can take the rationalization of only being reasonable and go put back in the copy of Mien Kampf you took it out of.

Michael
Tuebor Libertatus

Offline gryphon

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Speaking of straw purchases and Robyn Anderson, as I was before, here's something I read today elsewhere:

Another example, straw-buying. Should be a fairly straightforward case. But, it takes some work. And, ultimately, you are facing the prospect of sending a young female – often a single mother – to prison for a non-violent crime of buying a gun and giving it to her “boy-friend”. Prosecutors just don’t want to do this when they have violent criminals to deal with.

How many people get put in prison for straw purchases/sales?  Very, very few, if any.  A cop was recently convicted of a straw purchase.  The only reason they got him for that was because he was arrested for a bank robbery.  And plotting a massacre of fellow law enforcement officers.

He could have received 15 years in prison and fines totaling $500,000 for the straw purchase alone, but he didn't.  He got probation.  A straw purchase from an FFL is actually two crimes, a) the purchase itself, and b) causing an FFL to keep false records.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 07:35:51 PM by gryphon »

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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How many people get put in prison for straw purchases/sales?  Very, very few, if any.  A cop was recently convicted of a straw purchase.  The only reason they got him for that was because he was arrested for a bank robbery.  And plotting a massacre of fellow law enforcement officers.

Tell that to Bruce Abramski and Manuel Eduardo Pena.
Abramski, like David Olofson, is living proof that it is entirely unreasonable to expect a fair trial in the feral court system.
Pena gets a bit less sympathy from me.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/supreme-court-hear-form-4473-perjury-case/#more-265569

http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/south-texas-federal-jury-convicts-cbp-officer-straw-purchasing-firearms
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline gryphon

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Tell that to Bruce Abramski

Abramski is the cop I referred to in my post.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Abramski is the cop I referred to in my post.

Holy chit, you're right.
Somehow I totally missed seeing anything about him and a bank robbery.

So the total BS charge of straw purchasing for a legal end user is just an added 'eff you' charge on a guy who they already had on federal bank robbery charges?
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline gryphon

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Offline gryphon

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Mr gryphon: Your last two posts were far too lengthy for me to reply to with any clarity or focus.

Of course they were.  I cited actual facts.  You had no response.  Even after five pages of replies you still had no response.

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As far as a 100% ban on guns, no one is suggesting such a ludicrous proposition.

No, but I am saying that that is the ONLY thing that has even a remote chance of ending gun crime.  How do you think that will go down with the American public?

Mr gryphon: Here's the dilemma: If it is already illegal to sell guns to criminals, yet gun owners continue to do so, how do we change that?

Make it more illegal?

Ms Anderson should have prosecuted under the law as being an accessory to murder. You're right, we should enforce the laws already on the books. Put the responsibility squarely on gun owners, where it belongs.

So put the responsibility on gun owners who commit ILLEGAL ACTS, right?

The general public grows ever more weary of death after death, massacre after massacre. If we gun owners continue to exist in denial, then eventually public opinion will change to the point where the Bloombergs of the world will have their way. Then legislation will be passed that we REALLY don't like.

Although it may sound logical to you, in reality that's not the way it works or is working.  Even the anti-gun drumbeats after Sandy Hook gained zero traction.  Not one iota.  Despite the crime we have--and we will always have crime regardless of whether we have guns or not--America has become more pro-2A.  More and more states are expanding their "stand your ground" laws, legalizing open carry, enacting Constitutional Carry, eliminating gun-free zones, mandating CLEOs sign off on NFA items, and much more.  I assume you have been reading the MOC newsletter, so you are well aware of all of these pro-2A law changes across America.

Mr Tuctom: If my gun were properly secured in a locked safe

Objection, your Honor, statement calls for a conclusion by the witness.

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stored the rest with a neighbor who had a large gun safe.

Kinda hard to carry a gun for self-defense when you have given them all away.  I trust your friend had a CPL else you were violating the law.

Mr linux203: Compromise means that each side doesn't get EVERYTHING it wants. Gun owners don't get everything, and neither do the liberal gun haters. But if you didn't get everything you want (unfettered or unburdened access to firearms) that doesn't mean you lost.

Gun owners never get everything they want.  We want Constitutional Carry across the USA.  Period.  Anything less than that is a compromise.  We are always compromising.  What you are suggesting, though, is a loss of rights, a loss of freedoms from what we currently have.  As the Senate subcommittee said to Clarence Thomas during his confirmation hearings, we want an expansion of rights. 

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If you don't like my ideas, that's fine. Suggest some of your own. Put out specifics on how we can ensure public safety

How about enforcing current gun laws?  How about enforcing current laws, period?  The man that murdered Kate Steinle in SF that got all the news recently was a felon, had been deported five times, and was ordered held on ANOTHER immigration detainer, but San Francisco is a "Safe Harbor" city and they refused so they let him go free and he stole a gun from a federal agent and murdered Kate Steinle.  How many criminals are plead down to lesser charges and put back out on the street over and over and over again?  We've got murderers with twenty previous arrests who never spent a day in prison or even a day in jail outside of their booking time.  You realize that only a very small portion of our society are violent criminals, right?  How about we just deal with them and not persecute the honest citizens of America?

Mr gryphon: For some reason we Americans seem to think we have the only "free" society in the world, and that is a result of our gun culture.

Not accurate.  It's not only guns, it's everything else as well.  How about free speech?  You've got people in Canada being prosecuted for hate crimes for doing book reviews that talk about Muslims and people in the UK being prosecuted for hate crimes for preaching what the Bible says because it talks about homosexuality.  Although tangentially related to guns, you had the RCMP break into people's houses and take their guns without warrants.  No one has gone to prison yet or even get fired, and no one will.

In some post you asked about what country is more safe because of guns (I tried to find it but overlooked it apparently), I started crafting a lengthy response offline.  I made charts using countries in Europe and Northern Asia.  Almost without exception the countries with more guns had less murders, and vice versa.

I also thought I'd mention that the US has a firearms ownership rate of over 110 while the US Virgin Islands has a firearms ownership rate of, well, we don’t know, but it is minuscule because they have very tight gun control.  The US murder rate is 4.7.  The US Virgin Islands murder rate is 50 – 60 depending on the year.

But you know what?  None of that matters.  I'll tell you a country that is safer because of guns, and that's America.  Yes, we have gun crime, but we have more lawful self-defense uses of firearms.  If guns were magically eliminated from the earth we'd have more innocent people getting violently assaulted and murdered than we do today.  So America is safer because of guns, not more dangerous.

You want to talk about violent crime?  Look to the UK.  But you refused to address that.  We might have 3 more homicides people per 100,000, but they have hundreds to over a thousand more violent assaults per 100,000 than we do.  That's what being unable to defend yourself looks like.  Maybe you want to end up in a hospital.  I don't.  It's a choice.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 09:30:20 AM by gryphon »

Offline TheQ

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According to Heritage, Hong Kong is freest at least as far as economic freedom.

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

Good ole USA? #12...
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 11:40:48 AM by TheQ »
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline gryphon

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Maybe freediver can move to Hong Kong.  We can always hope.

Offline Pond Scum

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Maybe freediver can move to Hong Kong.  We can always hope.

Don't get your hopes up.  I hear they have good internet connections in Hong Kong.

Offline freediver

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Sorry I haven't replied, ladies and gentlemen, but I was working and out of the country. I'll do my best to get back into the discussion as soon as I've had a chance to review some of the postings. I do enjoy a lively discuss, and it looks like we have a few new players.

Offline Pond Scum

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Welcome back Freediver!!   Find a country with good internet connections!!     :D

Offline freediver

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Ms redwingsrule6971: I applaud your stance. You took a look at the crime in your neighborhood, decided you weren't going to be a victim, and took action. Excellent! I would suggest a couple of other things. If you've done these already, I apologize for preaching to the choir.

Tactical shooting is a completely different scenario than range shooting. In addition to arming yourself and practicing on the range, I would offer the idea that you do two more things: take a tactical shooting course which practices skills such as close in "tussle" type shooting as well as considerations for your surroundings and how to wound/kill an assailant, There's a very big difference between shooting holes in a target and shooting to kill someone quickly. Second, I would include a hand to hand combat class in your training. Depending on the scenario, you may not get a chance to use your gun or it may not be effective. Learning a few self defense techniques may make the difference if you ever have to use your skills.

Most importantly, go through the mental prep that you'll need to kill someone. It takes a mind shift, not always an easy one, to take a life. You need to make that decision beforehand. And run through different scenarios so that you're mentally ready.

The preparation will make all the difference. In the military we had an expression "you fight like you train." I've found it to be true in almost everything I've done.

Best of luck!

Offline freediver

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Mr Pond Scum: I was in Amsterdam. Great city, great internet connections. But I have a life. I prefer to go out and walk around or ride a bike than remain chained to my computer. But thanks for commenting on my personal life. I always appreciate it.

Amsterdam is one of those beautiful cities full of great architecture, bookstores, history, culture, food, etc. And it seems that both its citizens and its visitors don't feel the need to carry a weapon everywhere they go. Must be a cultural thing, I guess.

Offline autosurgeon

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Then don't carry a weapon freediver.. I could care less what you do. However don't tell me or anyone else how to carry out our life. It's not your place or business. 

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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."