Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries

[freediver]

Mr m.marino: There is a very important difference between Israel/Switzerland and the United States. In the two countries you mentioned all citizens are required to train as part of the military reserves and to maintain a firearm in accordance with their reserve duty. So, all those gun owners have been trained not only in the safety and proper handling of firearms but they have been required to demonstrate proficiency with their firearm not only on a range but in tactical shooting situations. They are also required to maintain their proficiency with frequent training events.

Nothing like that exists in the United States, and that's what I've been saying. The bar to gun ownership has been set so low in the US that the only requirement to own and carry is to be of legal age and not be a felon. No requirements for training, proficiency, licensing, recurrent training, tactical situation training, none of that. As a result we have the free for all that we see played out in the news every week; crime, massacres, accidental shootings, gun theft, etc.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be able to carry. I'm a firm believer in our rights. I also believe that with that right to carry comes the sober responsibility to be trained and proficient and to understand how to handle tactical situations. I don't see that happening, and that's the change I'm trying to talk about.

[freediver]

Mr autosurgeon: It is my place and my life to make input when it affects my personal safety. My personal safety comes into question when I see gun owners behaving irresponsibly. As per the bureau of Justice Statistics over 200,000 guns are lost or stolen every year. Partly from poor storage practices, but mostly from illegal buyers or illegal gun purchases. Many of those 200,000 guns make it into the hands of criminals, which then I have to contend with. Add to that all the accidental deaths and discharges, mass murders, use while under the influence and it all adds up to pretty crummy gun culture.

We the gun owners are to blame. We are the ones who are selling these guns illegally, storing them improperly, allowing them to fall into the wrong hands, or failing to maintain proficiency with them. So as long as your right to carry affects my personal safety, yes, I do get to make inputs. As do our other citizens. We're all in this together.

[freediver]

Mr gryphon: We seemed to get sidetracked by the issue of proper storage. I will grant you that no gun safe is perfectly impenetrable and that thieves will target them. I reviewed the BofJ statistics and stolen guns are in the minority. The majority of illegal gun transfers occur with straw buyers, illegal sales (sold it to my cousin lefty, he seems like a good guy), and illegal sales by FFLs. So I come back to my original contention: if we the gun owners are the ones creating the problem (guns going to criminals and crazies), how do we stop this?

And storage is not just about keeping thieves at bay. It's also about making sure your child or grandchild, your depressed wife (I believe you used that scenario), your jealous neighbor (I told you to stay away from his wife) can't get to them easily. So it's a bigger question than just "how easily can we cut one open?"

[freediver]

Mr TheQ: Excellent post about the economic freedom rankings. I notice that most of the countries ranked above the US do have stricter gun laws than we do. So I don't think we can use the equation: "more guns=freedom." There are a lot of factors at work.

[gryphon]

Amsterdam is one of those beautiful cities full of great architecture, bookstores, history, culture, food, etc. And it seems that both its citizens and its visitors don't feel the need to carry a weapon everywhere they go. Must be a cultural thing, I guess.

It's not a choice.  It's prohibited.  You can neither CC nor OC in the Netherlands.

[gryphon]

The majority of illegal gun transfers occur with straw buyers, illegal sales, and illegal sales by FFLs. So I come back to my original contention: if we the gun owners are the ones creating the problem (guns going to criminals and crazies), how do we stop this?

Make it illegal?

[autosurgeon]

We stop worrying about how the criminal got the tool he or she used. How do you explain criminals having guns in countries with strict gun control and very little civilian ownership..

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[TucTom]

right to carry comes the sober responsibility to be trained and proficient and to understand how to handle tactical situations. I don't see that happening, and that's the change I'm trying to talk about.

So, even though you say it is,you really don't think it is a responsibility because you want to create laws that remove the personal responsibility correct?

mostly from illegal buyers or illegal gun purchases. Many of those 200,000 guns make it into the hands of criminals,

So once again you want to make it MORE ILLEGAL because you already know it is illegal. If it is illegal already what do you propose to do? Restrict my rights because there are people who will continue to break the law? These people will continue to break the law even if more laws are enacted. Don't you get it?

 

[TucTom]

It's not a choice.  It's prohibited.  You can neither CC nor OC in the Netherlands.

Dan, it's not nice to point out someones ignorance. 

[TheQ]

Mr autosurgeon: It is my place and my life to make input when it affects my personal safety. My personal safety comes into question when I see gun owners behaving irresponsibly. As per the bureau of Justice Statistics over 200,000 guns are lost or stolen every year. Partly from poor storage practices, but mostly from illegal buyers or illegal gun purchases. Many of those 200,000 guns make it into the hands of criminals, which then I have to contend with. Add to that all the accidental deaths and discharges, mass murders, use while under the influence and it all adds up to pretty crummy gun culture.

We the gun owners are to blame. We are the ones who are selling these guns illegally, storing them improperly, allowing them to fall into the wrong hands, or failing to maintain proficiency with them. So as long as your right to carry affects my personal safety, yes, I do get to make inputs. As do our other citizens. We're all in this together.

What about the numerous guns in Genesee County that were recently reported missing -- from police agencies?!?

[TheQ]

Mr TheQ: Excellent post about the economic freedom rankings. I notice that most of the countries ranked above the US do have stricter gun laws than we do. So I don't think we can use the equation: "more guns=freedom." There are a lot of factors at work.

That article ranked economic freedom, which has to do with capital restrictions. Gun freedom would fall under "civil rights" which isn't measured by Heritage.

[freediver]

Mr TheQ: You make a very good point about lost or stolen firearms from law enforcement people being part of the problem. I would be curious to see what the ratio is of total lost/stolen weapons versus those "contributed" by LEOs. Or the military. As I've said before, it's not the bleeding heart liberals who are supplying guns to the criminals or the insane. It's us, the gun owners.

As far as your comments about economic freedom versus civil rights, it becomes hard to compare apples and oranges. Different countries have different environments when it comes to freedom, guns, safety, and economic mobility. My point was that there are plenty of countries out there who have "freedom" without being awash in firearms.

[freediver]

Mr autosurgeon: I think you might want to study up on the gun culture of other countries as far as their criminal use of guns. Yes, there are criminals in every society. Yes, there is crime. The difference is that in societies where guns are harder to obtain, there is less violent crime WITH a firearm. If the bad guys don't have a gun, you have more options. Guns and gun use is usually reserved for criminal on criminal stuff. They can't waste a precious resource on petty crime.

I know the US is a different country than most of Europe or Asia. All I'm saying is that a little balance is in order. More guns do not necessarily equate to more safety. And given the number of guns lost or stolen in the US every year, more guns = more guns lost or stolen.

If we are worried about criminals or the insane having and using guns, shouldn't we worry about how/where they're getting them? Seems logical to me. If I don't want my teenagers to drive my car, I make sure they can't get the keys.

[freediver]

Mr Gryphon/Mr TucTom: I know it's illegal to OC or CC in the Netherlands. That's my point. Amsterdam is a large city with plenty of visitors, a diverse mix of ethnicities, and legal prostitution and drugs. Yet somehow, without a lot of armed citizens, they seem to get along pretty well.

Mr Tuctom: We return to the same place in this discussion. If over 200,000 firearms are stolen or lost EVERY YEAR, and we are all worried about gun crime, shootings, and death in our society, how do you propose to solve the problem? The guns are coming from us, the gun owners and firearms dealers. Not from the non-gun owners. So if we TRULY want to stop gun violence and crime and make our streets safer, how do we do that? Inquiring minds want to know!

[TucTom]

Freediver, I see you are willing to give the Police / Government a pass in regards to their lost weapons (You didn't address what you would do). I would think fixing that problem first would be easier.

Once again you propose less personal responsibilities by creating more laws which already aren't enforced or don't work.

But for now freediver lets stick to one point: How would your creating a law to ensure guns are "secure" prevent stolen guns? Remember you told Gryphon  "We seemed to get sidetracked by the issue of proper storage" yet this is one of your major points.

So, everybody lets focus on one of freedivers points at a time. Proper Storage and what freediver wants and our arguments against. Then lets move on to another point.

[m.marino]

TucTom, I agree with the focusing on an issue at a time and clarifying that point. On safe storage and it's possible impact on illegal gun crime I would like to ask a few points:

1) what would be considered safe storage? Considering there currently are tools that are battery driven that will allow penetration of all but the most durable vaults. This is an issue no matter where in the world you have stored firearms.

2) The issue of storage not just civilian firearms but also the diverse government agencies and how to truly insure security and proper dealing with impounded weapons that are legally impounded (there is unfortunately more than enough evidence that this is NOT done in all cases).

3) How does proper storage truly effect gun crime considering that a large portion of gun crime is done with black market weapons and IF you are going to use Europe for an example than you might want to deal with the very active black market in all forms of illegal weapons that currently happen in many sections of the EU.

4) Does this magical demand of "proper" storage do more than add an additional expense and blockage to gun ownership (as it is used in the UK to block firearm ownership requests often, even in remote areas). If there is not a good body of independent research to support it, are we looking at more laws for laws sake and less truly reasoned action.

5) lastly who is going to pay for the government agency created to certify the security of different systems (I promise you that will arise and they will want very good pay).

just some points within the topic of storage and safety in storage. hard data please to back up positions, opinions are universal and shall be pointed towards the loo.

Michael

[TucTom]

Michael, thanks for understanding and sticking with the 1 subject at a time. I believe freediver wants to continue without actually answering a question. Read back and see how many times there was a question posed and never answered (the same way anti gun people do - never actually answer). If everyone wont mind working like this, we can take turns asking specific questions of freediver and wait for answers.

So freediver please tell us what and why instead of "X has to happen" over and over.

[TucTom]

I can't help but notice that freediver has now avoided this thread since I decided to try to start a one point at a time approach. Freediver, I know you have been on the forums and most likely read my request. So I will ask what is wrong?

You freediver insisted that laws need to change not the rest of us here. Yet you kept asking us what to do. I am willing to listen to and debate your ideas if you actually have full thoughts on your proposal for "change".

[MI_XD]

I can't help but notice that freediver has now avoided this thread since I decided to try to start a one point at a time approach. Freediver, I know you have been on the forums and most likely read my request. So I will ask what is wrong?

You freediver insisted that laws need to change not the rest of us here. Yet you kept asking us what to do. I am willing to listen to and debate your ideas if you actually have full thoughts on your proposal for "change".

Perhaps a troll has been snagged?
Eight days with no reply... Hmm, what country is hosting trolls this week?

[gryphon]

I read a stat the other day that said that guns used in crimes were about evenly split 50/50 between straw purchases from FFLs and stolen firearms.  Less than one percent of guns used in crime were purchased in private sales.  So that pretty much puts the lie to "universal background checks will make a difference."