Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries

[TheQ]

I read a stat the other day that said that guns used in crimes were about evenly split 50/50 between straw purchases from FFLs and stolen firearms.  Less than one percent of guns used in crime were purchased in private sales.  So that pretty much puts the lie to "universal background checks will make a difference."

Cite? It'd be an interesting tidbit to have.

[linux203]

Perhaps a troll has been snagged?
Eight days with no reply... Hmm, what country is hosting trolls this week?

Computer problems or out of town.  Always one of the two.

[gryphon]

Cite? It'd be an interesting tidbit to have.

I read it on TTAG.

[part deux]

So one is obtaining a firearm illegally, and the other is obtaining a firearm illegally.

I don't believe the cite... but irrespective, we don't need more laws to stop criminals from committing illegal acts.

[TucTom]

Computer problems or out of town.  Always one of the two.

Maybe the out of town computer is having problems.

[gryphon]

Cite? It'd be an interesting tidbit to have.

I don't believe the cite.

Numbers are from the feds: the BJS, FBI, and the ATF via the NRA-ILA.

There are three ways to get guns illegally: straw purchases (nearly 50%), theft, and private sales to prohibited people (less than 1%).  No percentage is listed for thefts, but if nearly 50% are straw purchases, and less than 1% are private sales, then the remainder "theft" must be about 50%.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the vast majority of criminals in state prison for gun crimes get guns through theft, on the black market, from a drug dealer or “on the street.”  Less than one percent get guns from gun shows.  (Private sales not requiring background checks).

According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), “The most frequent type of trafficking channel identified in ATF investigations is straw purchasing from federally licensed firearms dealers. Nearly 50 percent.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, “about 1.4 million guns, or an annual average of 232,400, were stolen during burglaries and other property crimes in the six-year period from 2005 through 2010.”

The FBI’s stolen firearm file contained over 2 million reports as of March 1995.The BATFE has reported “Those that steal firearms commit violent crimes with stolen guns, transfer stolen firearms to others who commit crimes, and create an unregulated secondary market for firearms, including a market for those who are prohibited by law from possessing a gun.”

Catherine Mortensen
Media Liaison
NRA, Institute for Legislative Action

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/daniel-zimmerman/nra-debunks-bogus-universal-background-check-justification/

[gryphon]

Cite from the NRA-ILA website:

How criminals get guns—Less than one percent get guns from gun shows.

Straw purchasers— According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), “The most frequent type of trafficking channel identified in ATF investigations is straw purchasing from federally licensed firearms dealers. Nearly 50 percent.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150805/forty-percent-of-guns-don-t-go-through-background-checks-lie-debunked

[CitizensHaveRights]

Straw purchasers— According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), “The most frequent type of trafficking channel identified in ATF investigations is straw purchasing from federally licensed firearms dealers. Nearly 50 percent.

The answer to that is the passage of my new one-gun-per-decade rationing bill.

[TucTom]

The answer to that is the passage of my new one-gun-per-decade rationing bill.

Watch it someone who tucked tail may see this and try to use it!

[gryphon]

Freediver, I see you are willing to give the Police / Government a pass in regards to their lost weapons

Here's an interesting story that details gun thefts from careless cops in Orlando.

An HK UMP submachine gun, an M4 semiautomatic rifle, a Glock 21, and a Glock 23 were stolen from a deputy's car when he left them unsecured overnight a few days ago.

A few months ago two pistols were stolen from undercover cops who left them unsecured in their rental car.

This story also mentions another theft of another submachine gun, a semi-automatic rifle and a .45-caliber Glock pistol stolen from a parked, unmarked Sheriff's Office SWAT vehicle in Orlando.  I can think of a number of LEO thefts, including a secret service agent who recently left his guns, including a sniper rifle I believe, in his car in a Marriott parking garage while on assignment and they were stolen.  Not the car, just the guns.  From the back seat.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-swat-machine-gun-stolen-20150714-story.html

[CitizensHaveRights]

And then there's the illegal alien, in the illegal alien sanctuary of San Francisco, who shot a woman with a handgun that was stolen after a federal park ranger left it unattended in a car.

[freediver]

Mr Tuctom and Mr linux203: Sorry I haven't replied promptly to any of these posts. I spent the last week and a half going to and from Japan and there's a problem with their internet access there that won't let me make posts. I can read and then compose replies, but I got error messages every time I tried to post. Given my absence I do appreciate your petty and juvenile remarks about trolls, etc. It's very entertaining to see such immaturity demonstrated in what should be a friendly discussion about gun policy. It's something I've noticed about other gun owners; that ridicule seems to be part of the repertoire when you disagree with someone. It reminds me of my teenage granddaughters and their antics.

I hate to disappoint you, but I don't have the time to sit by the computer and respond to every single remark; there just isn't enough time in the day. Given that this thread is now into seven pages and has wandered from the original topic, I'm going to excuse myself from this thread. I look forward to future salty discussions with all of you.

Best of luck, ladies and gentlemen.

[TucTom]

And once again, choose not to discuss one point at a time. I understand.

[CitizensHaveRights]

And once again, choose not to discuss one point at a time. I understand.

http://journal.ijreview.com/2015/07/245635-gun-rights-advocates-have-a-devastating-new-argument-against-gun-control-here-it-is/

[gryphon]

And once again, choose not to discuss one point at a time. I understand.

I think the tactic is to just throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and hope some of it sticks.

[m.marino]

I might get in trouble for what I am about to post but so be it.

As it is known that i live outside the US and deal with international folks on a regular basis I tend to pick up on speech patterns and they mean a lot. Freediver in writing shows a very distinct British language pattern. Home county even (those who understand that statement will know it is not a complement in the rest of Britain). As such I call not only troll but a pretty poor one at that. I know for a fact that posting in Japan is no problem to any US forum (Have friends who do so daily).

I would strongly suggest that someone might want to check if the ship has leaks and we don't have a mole in the garden. Can't stop them all but the openly divisive can be shown the door. I remember on an earlier post getting told to give reference or retract my statement, has that bar been lowered?

I have seen in this thread many posts that don't support Freediver's position that have gladly given citation of their data. yet the inverse has not been the case. This is a known passive-aggressive style of attack in debate and when called on the floor to actually support the position with real data, tend to scream even louder (or in the case of governments create events to justify actions [There are many examples of this, the burning of the Reichstag in 1933 and the mass murder in the UK are but a few examples]).

Freediver has done a good bit of name calling and than acting as the one harmed. Made statements that normally would demand citation of support and than acted as if it is not his duty to do so. There are many ways of dividing a group and playing the same types of cards that come straight out of Mein Kampf are favorites of the left. It is interesting that it was left wing groups in the US and the UK that both pulled that book from the reading list of school children (upper middle and high school) about the same time they finished killing off latin in school as well.

I apologize for the length of my post but please think on it a bit.

Michael

[freediver]

Mr m.marino: sorry to burst your bubble but: British-no, south Philly raised-yes. Mole-no, ex-military and law enforcement-yes. Liberal-no, conservative-no, American-yes. Difference of opinion with some of the Forum participants-yes. Over the course of this thread I have cited numbers, examples, and presented logical arguments. I have refrained from any name calling during those discussions because I think it cheapens the discussion. If you can show me examples of my resorting to name calling I would like to see it.

As far as the rest of your post about Mein Kampf and Latin and schoolchildren, I confess I don't follow your reasoning so I'm not sure how to respond. We were discussing gun policy, and how hundreds of thousands of weapons are stolen or illegally purchased each year in the U.S. And what some fixes might be. Some of my recommendations were met with skepticism. So be it. The fact of the matter is that guns are going from legal hands to illegal hands through us, the gun owners. If we profess to be responsible gun owners, then I think it falls to us to try and come up with solutions that work. Remaining in denial, or blaming someone else, only makes the situation worse.

So, bottom line: if you don't like my solutions to the movement of weapons into the wrong hands, then come up with your own. Propose solutions that work for ALL Americans, not just the ones who like carrying guns.

[gryphon]

You can't stop people from committing crime unless you lock them up and keep them locked up.  You are probably aware that the guy who was shooting at Ferguson cops, Tyrone Harris, was already out on bond for stealing a car, theft of a firearm, and resisting arrest.  He already has multiple felonies pending and he's out on the street shooting at cops. 

You can't stop someone from making a straw purchase unless you stop gun sales.  If they are going to lie to an FFL, they're going to lie to an FFL.  If they have a clean record their NICS check will go through and then they'll pass the gun along to a prohibited person.  The only way to stop that is to stop gun sales, period.

Are you willing to go that far?

[darrenlobo]

You can't stop people from committing crime unless you lock them up and keep them locked up.  You are probably aware that the guy who was shooting at Ferguson cops, Tyrone Harris, was already out on bond for stealing a car, theft of a firearm, and resisting arrest.  He already has multiple felonies pending and he's out on the street shooting at cops.

I have to disagree. The US with its massive incarceration rate is hardly crime free. What you have to do is fix the social dynamics that drive crime:

"... increases in the homicide rate—correlated closely with four distinct phenomena: political instability; a loss of government legitimacy; a loss of fellow-feeling among members of society caused by racial, religious, or political antagonism; and a loss of faith in the social hierarchy."

http://www.amazon.com/American-Homicide-Randolph-Roth/dp/0674064119

You can't stop someone from making a straw purchase unless you stop gun sales.  If they are going to lie to an FFL, they're going to lie to an FFL.  If they have a clean record their NICS check will go through and then they'll pass the gun along to a prohibited person.  The only way to stop that is to stop gun sales, period.

Are you willing to go that far?

Of course gun rights haters are willing to go that far, it's actually their goal. It's a fantasy though. Even if there were no legal gun sales there would still be gun sales. Just like with the war on drugs the war on guns will fail miserably.

[gryphon]