Are you looking into importing Facebook discussions into the forum?
That I am definitely not.
Mostly just a learning exercise and a way for me to share stupidity when needed.
Example:
|Poster: Robert Harris
|Time: 12Nov14 @ 14:02:23EST
|
|Better meme, we trust airline pilots with the lives of all their passengers ...but we don't trust them with a gun to defend their passengers or the thousands of lives in a skyscraper if the plane is hijacked. Odd.
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|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 12Nov14 @ 14:33:36EST
|
|Not sure what you're talking about. The Federal Flight Deck Officer program deputizes pilots with a jurisdiction of the aircraft cockpit. Many are armed although for obvious reasons, the numbers are not public, but I flew with one yesterday.
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|Poster: Robert Harris
|Time: 12Nov14 @ 14:34:12EST
|
|That's awesome! Glad to hear it.
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|Poster: Robert Harris
|Time: 12Nov14 @ 14:35:07EST
|
|Goes to show you, Brad...not everything we read on the Internet is true. Lol
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|Poster: Jason Gillman Jr.
|Time: 12Nov14 @ 14:36:58EST
|
|Bradley Doolittle: Are they still requiring the use of that jank ass holster design?
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|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 12Nov14 @ 20:46:21EST
|
|Not sure what you mean, but it's a govt issued piece, Sig I think. Don't know about the holster.
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|Poster: Jason Gillman Jr.
|Time: 13Nov14 @ 06:32:34EST
|
|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV-wZt_IcLE
|http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/12/02/tsa.holster/index.html?eref=ib_us
|
|The FFDO program is still retarded insofar as it requires that the pilot only can break out the piece once the door is locked.
|
|Of course, it's been.... a few years now since I've worked in the industry, so things may have changed. I could go on a further rant about TSAs ridiculous other policies, but I'll be nice to Robert and hold off from flooding his thread 
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|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 13Nov14 @ 09:19:10EST
|
|It's not retarded. The officers jurisdiction is the flight deck. His charge is to defend it against malicious takeover of the aircraft. That's it. The FFDO is not to open the door to engage a threat outside the flight deck. If there is an active threat, the door is not to be opened under any circumstance. The reality is that some of the passengers may have to be sacrificed to prevent the aircraft from being used as a weapon. The pilots will both be very busy trying to get the thing on the ground ASAP. If the flight deck is breached, that's when the threat gets eliminated.
|_________________________
|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 13Nov14 @ 09:20:56EST
|
|Beyond that I can't really discuss aviation security protocols. Just trust us. It's fine.
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|Poster: Robert Harris
|Time: 13Nov14 @ 09:27:35EST
|
|Good answer, Brad. Thanks for chiming in.
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|Poster: Jason Gillman Jr.
|Time: 13Nov14 @ 12:27:50EST
|
|The PICs jurisdiction should be the whole aircraft. It *should* be his discretion whether he stays locked up in the cockpit due to CRM concerns, or whether he goes and actively engages the threat because he knows the guy flying right seat can competently handle the aircraft and radios himself. In the air, it's *his* aircraft, not some bureaucrat in Washington that thinks he knows whats best.
|
|Of course, if the FFDO is the guy flying right seat, well, that should still be at the discretion of the PIC.
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|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 13Nov14 @ 16:50:40EST
|
|How 'bout you leave this one up to the experts, ok champ?
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|Poster: Jason Gillman Jr.
|Time: 14Nov14 @ 06:01:29EST
|
|I'm pretty sure you don't need to be a CRJ driver to argue whether or not the PIC should have the discretion to take whatever steps he deems necessary for safety of the flight. It's not even something that should be a discussion in the first place: The PIC is the one that has final authority for the safe operation of the flight. Take a glance at Part 1 §1.1 of the FAR if you want to ensure that uncle FAA approves of that stance.
|
|Additionally, you REALLY don't need to be a CRJ driver to hop in the debate about whether flight crews should be able to just openly carry their firearm without messing with it every single time they enter or exit the cockpit.
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|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 14Nov14 @ 09:18:24EST
|
|The FFDO program is not governed by the FAA. It falls under TSA and DHS. The security protocols are developed and issued based on current and historical data from intelligence. Trust me, they know what they are doing. There are a number of reasons the flight deck goes on lockdown in any security threat situation. The simplest to explain is a situation involving multiple hijackers (sound familiar?). A hijacker could create a threat in the back of the A/C to lure the pilot/FFDO out of the cockpit. When he unlocks the door, another hijacker or group of hijackers could rush the flight deck from the first row, lav, galley, etc. The protocol is hard and fast for a reason.
|_________________________
|Poster: Jason Gillman Jr.
|Time: 17Nov14 @ 07:14:47EST
|
|===
|The FFDO program is not governed by the FAA. It falls under TSA and DHS.
|===
|I am aware of this. I referenced the FAR so there is no question by readers of this thread that the PIC makes the final call for things in flight.
|
|===
|The security protocols are developed and issued based on current and historical data from intelligence. Trust me, they know what they are doing.
|===
|Are you sure they know what their doing? That horrendous holster design up top seems to indicate otherwise, as well as the numerous other issues they've had over the years.
|
|===
|There are a number of reasons the flight deck goes on lockdown in any security threat situation. The simplest to explain is a situation involving multiple hijackers (sound familiar?). A hijacker could create a threat in the back of the A/C to lure the pilot/FFDO out of the cockpit. When he unlocks the door, another hijacker or group of hijackers could rush the flight deck from the first row, lav, galley, etc. The protocol is hard and fast for a reason.
|===
|And it's impossible for someone to take down an aircraft without gaining access to the cockpit (I'm thinking, say, former A&P)? It would seem that it may be advantageous to engage the threat at that point.
|
|Let's be clear: I am not saying that the FFDO should or should not engage the threat. That is going to be entirely dependant upon the situation.
|
|What I am saying, however, is that the decision to engage should be able to be made by the PIC given that they have been implicitely and explicitely entrusted to have final authority in matters relating to flight safety - it should not be made by some guy sitting in DC.
|_________________________
|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 17Nov14 @ 12:43:45EST
|
|An FFDO has one responsibility and one responsibility ONLY. That is to prevent the aircraft from being taken over by a terrorist and used as a weapon, iow hijacked and flown under control to a predetermined target. If they can't get into the flight deck, they can't do it. Collateral damage up to and including human life may be part of the equation. It's likely any hijacker worth their salt will try to lure the pilots to open the door by threatening violence against most likely a flight attendant. This is not a Hollywood movie, this is national security. Let it go dude.
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|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 17Nov14 @ 12:46:50EST
|
|As far as the holster, I don't know anything about it, but an FFDO is not allowed to have the weapon out/unlocked/on anywhere but in the flight deck. Not in the airport, not in the van, not in the lav, not at the hotel...etc. So there is really no need for a holster. Considering that, it was likely the low bidder.
|_________________________
|Poster: Jason Gillman Jr.
|Time: 18Nov14 @ 14:32:31EST
|
|It's not a Hollywood movie? Sonuvabitch!
|
|Oh, wait, I knew that.
|
|"Just trust us. It's fine."
|"How 'bout you leave this one up to the experts, ok champ?"
|"Let it go dude."
|
|It's clear that you really have no inclination to legitimately concern yourself in the areas of self defense, firearms safety, or security. You simply play as a proxy for the TSA/DHS policy de jure. In simple terms, all your arguments are by appeal to authority.
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|Let me give you a tip: Appealing to authority only works if the "authority" is actually competent in the subject matter. When you have an agency that's supposedly an authority on safety and security mandating the use of a horrendously flawed holster design (which, by your very own admission, you can't, or at least won't, analyze why or why not), their credibility is immediately lost. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of firearms and holsters could tell you why it's bad.
|
|Hey, I agree: If the biggest threat is control of the cockpit, it does make sense to have that final protective fires line at that locked door. However, that's not my concern here. My concern is your blind support for a policy that limits a PIC from taking the appropriate action in an edgecase that, my god, might actually lead him to having an assessment that leaving the cockpit is the appropriate action. A policy generated by individuals in DC that are clearly incompetent in even fundamental things.
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|Kind Sir, it is clear that you should just stick to flying CRJs and Saabs. As much as I question your judgment, I still believe that YOU, and ONLY YOU, should have the final call on safety matters when that dispatch has you flying left seat.
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|Poster: Bradley Doolittle
|Time: 18Nov14 @ 14:58:44EST
|
|Really? Still with this?
|
|If, as airline pilots, we are constantly to assume that the procedures and protocols set in place that govern out operations are in error and simply the result of inept government bureaucrats, an airplane would never leave the ground as every pilot would be doing things the way they feel is best. We can't all be the expert, yourself or myself included.
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|You're really fascinated with this holster. Do you own a holster company or something? I thought I explained to you that we really don't even need holsters and many do not utilize them. We're not cops, we're security guards for an area the size of a half bath with three chairs in it.
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|Look, if you have a serious problem with the way you think this program is being handled, you are more than welcome to take it up with the TSA and the folks in Ok city where they train. But pilots follow procedures and protocols. It is what we do. End of story. Yes we are responsible for decision making when things go haywire, but the whole idea post 911 is that a hijacking is no longer "things going haywire". We are trained for it and have procedures. That's it. Please try to understand, I do not come to your job and tell you how you do it is stupid.
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Output isn't the prettiest, but it's easy to copy-pasta.
