Author Topic: Open Carry on a Moped  (Read 2600 times)

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Offline #1Gunner

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Open Carry on a Moped
« on: July 27, 2015, 02:25:47 PM »
I cannot believe how many people carry a CPL and a firearm that do not understand Michigan compiled laws specifically MCL 28.425f. I purposely asked 20 random CPL Holders what the disclosure law was and what you have to disclose to an officer if you are carrying in a vehicle when "stopped" and have a CPL. Out of 19 of people, only one person got it right. This all stemmed from an incident where I was almost arrested and charged with Failure to disclose for telling the officer I had a gun but failing to say I had a CPL (know that he didn't ask if I had one nor did he request to see my CPL). When asked, 19 out of 20 people said that not only do you have to disclose that you have a gun but you MUST ALSO immediately (without being asked by the cop) disclose that you have a CPL which is totally incorrect.

So what do you think the law is, WAIT... Don't go read 28.425f just answer the question and be honest with yourself. Although I agree that it is probably wise to say you have both it isn't required by LAW so please do not say "to avoid all of that just hand them your CPL & disclose" those are not valid answers to what the law states but rather opinions. An equal number of officers also do not know what 28.425f actually states obviously since my gun was almost seized and confiscated. Since he couldn't get me on that after holding me there for an hour he told me I changed multiple lanes with no signal and wrote me a ticket for not signaling. What a crock... This road pirate was completely lying and only did this because I was carrying a gun in plain view PERIOD. Its so sad what LEO has become.. This officer should be ashamed of himself.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 03:09:37 PM »
You only have to notify that you have a pistol.  You do not have to say you have a CPL, but you are required to carry it and provide it if asked for it.  So easy a caveman could do it.


Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 03:18:11 PM »
Its so sad what LEO has become..

Not become, always has been.
Like the time in 1987 I got written up as 66 in a 55 zone for flipping off a thug while driving 52mph.
Funny story behind that. In 1986 I met this evil thug (R.I.P.), probably the worst one, aside from the undersheriff, that ECSD had at the time. From that day forward, I rolled down my window and shoved my middle finger out at arm's length every time I saw an Eaton County deputy. This went on uneventfully for 6-7 months, until the day I did it to the original thug, who pulled me over, threatened me, and wrote 3 bogus tickets. The rest of them knew I was flipping their uniform off, not them personally. But this guy apparently took everything personally, as I was driving a car he wouldn't recognize as mine when he chased me down for showing him a finger.

My actions, and their general lack of reaction, showed that the majority of our deputies could not be easily baited into blatantly illegal acts, and it's entirely possible that only one of them was that kind of douchebag. They refused to accept my report against him, but three years later it got bad enough that they had to push him into resigning 'with a clean record'. I never found out what he did or to whom that cost him his job.

Quote
This officer should be ashamed of himself.

Indeed. Most cops are pretty thick skinned, but a minority of thugs just have to win every argument, and perjury is a small price for them to pay for saving face when a taxpayer knows the law better than they do.
I like to think that the numbers of these thugs hasn't markedly increased in recent years, and that the only change is that now we're much more likely to have video proof of their actions.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 03:23:31 PM by CitizensHaveRights »
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 03:23:26 PM »
Wow, thanks for the reply. Its a shame because all I was guilty of is carrying a gun. That's it I wasn't rude at all period.

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 03:25:06 PM »
Not become, always has been.
Like the time in 1987 I got written up as 66 in a 55 zone for flipping off a thug while driving 52mph.
Funny story behind that. In 1986 I met this evil thug (R.I.P.), probably the worst one, aside from the undersheriff, that ECSD had at the time. From that day forward, I rolled down my window and shoved my middle finger out at arm's length every time I saw an Eaton County deputy. This went on uneventfully for 6-7 months, until the day I did it to the original thug, who pulled me over, threatened me, and wrote 3 bogus tickets. The rest of them knew I was flipping their uniform off, not them personally. But this guy apparently took everything personally, as I was driving a car he wouldn't recognize as mine when he chased me down for showing him a finger.

My actions, and their general lack of reaction, showed that the majority of our deputies could not be easily baited into blatantly illegal acts, and it's entirely possible that only one of them was that kind of douchebag. They refused to accept my report against him, but three years later it got bad enough that they had to push him into resigning 'with a clean record'. I never found out what he did or to whom that cost him his job.

Indeed. Most cops are pretty thick skinned, but a minority of thugs just have to win every argument, and perjury is a small price for them to pay for saving face when a taxpayer knows the law better than they do.
I like to think that the numbers of these thugs hasn't markedly increased in recent years, and that the only change is that now we're much more likely to have video proof of their actions.
Haha I sure do miss those commercials

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 03:25:50 PM »
You only have to notify that you have a pistol.  You do not have to say you have a CPL, but you are required to carry it and provide it if asked for it.  So easy a caveman could do it.


Haha sure do miss those commercials

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 03:26:46 PM »
Wow, thanks for the reply. Its a shame because all I was guilty of is carrying a gun. That's it I wasn't rude at all period.

Did you dispute his interpretation of the law, or did he do it simply because he wasted an hour of his time on you and didn't want to come up empty handed? (I guess there's a third possible explanation, that he really really hates OC)
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2015, 04:04:10 PM »
Yes it went like this... Cop: What does the law say about disclosing when you have a CPL? Me: That I have to disclose if I'm carrying a firearm which you plainly saw prior to pulling me over. Cop: what does it say when you have a CPL and are carrying concealed? Me: that I have a gun on me and I am carrying. Why don't you tell me what it says then officer? Please know that I am not trying to be rude but please tell me what your interpretation is? Cop: you should know, you know a lot of laws. I am a cop I wouldn't know the laws or anything. Me: I have a CPL, would you like to see it? Cop: Now steaming "what does the law say about not disclosing to an officer while carrying a CPL"? Me: If you are insinuating that I had to disclose I had a CPL you are incorrect. Your partner asked me immediately if I had a license (CPL) and I said yes. I did nothing unlawful. Cop: <after almost 40 mins of whispering with his partner back and forth and threatening to confiscate> I am issuing you a citation for not signaling lane change. Have a better day sir... Me: hopefully you will have a better day sir... Thank you.

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 04:07:41 PM »
Did you dispute his interpretation of the law, or did he do it simply because he wasted an hour of his time on you and didn't want to come up empty handed? (I guess there's a third possible explanation, that he really really hates OC)
He said he pulled me over from the start because of failure to signal. NOT TRUE, he saw my gun PERIOD and this is why he pulled me over.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 04:36:23 PM »
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, failure to signal a lane change is not a traffic offense in Michigan.
Oops, my bad. It wasn't considered an offense by my teacher (or, IIRC, the pamphlet "What Every Driver Must Know") when I took driver's ed, but interpretations can change over time, and MSP says it's an offense now, and references a 2007 court decision (30 years after I was taught that signaling lane changes was optional)
I think the law is poorly worded and we all got screwed because the Court of Appeals didn't want a drunk driver to get off on a technicality.
https://cases.justia.com/michigan/court-of-appeals-published/20071129_C278053_40_187O.278053.OPN.COA.PDF?ts=1323898271


http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1586_27094-73839--,00.html

Question:  When are turn signals required to be used and does this include changing lanes?

Answer:  MCL 257.648states in part. "The driver...before stopping or turning from a direct line, shall first see that the stopping or turning can be made in safety and shall give a signal as required...".  Common sense and state law agree that whenever you are turning, a signal is required, however, much debate has occurred over whether that language required the use of turn signals when simply changing lanes.

The Michigan Court of Appeals has finally clarified the language in MCL 257.648 requiring the use of a signal when changing lanes, or "turning from a direct line."  Their decision--published, and therefore binding on lower courts--states in summary "...a reasonable person of ordinary intelligence is not required to speculate about the phrase's meaning, and MCL 257.648 provides fair notice of what conduct is proscribed. We hold that MCL 257.648 requires drivers to use a turn signal when changing lanes on a highway and is not unconstitutionally vague."
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 04:50:47 PM by CitizensHaveRights »
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2015, 05:10:08 PM »
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, failure to signal a lane change is not a traffic offense in Michigan.
Oops, my bad. It wasn't considered an offense by my teacher (or, IIRC, the pamphlet "What Every Driver Must Know") when I took driver's ed, but interpretations can change over time, and MSP says it's an offense now, and references a 2007 court decision (30 years after I was taught that signaling lane changes was optional)
I think the law is poorly worded and we all got screwed because the Court of Appeals didn't want a drunk driver to get off on a technicality.
https://cases.justia.com/michigan/court-of-appeals-published/20071129_C278053_40_187O.278053.OPN.COA.PDF?ts=1323898271


http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1586_27094-73839--,00.html

Question:  When are turn signals required to be used and does this include changing lanes?

Answer:  MCL 257.648states in part. "The driver...before stopping or turning from a direct line, shall first see that the stopping or turning can be made in safety and shall give a signal as required...".  Common sense and state law agree that whenever you are turning, a signal is required, however, much debate has occurred over whether that language required the use of turn signals when simply changing lanes.

The Michigan Court of Appeals has finally clarified the language in MCL 257.648 requiring the use of a signal when changing lanes, or "turning from a direct line."  Their decision--published, and therefore binding on lower courts--states in summary "...a reasonable person of ordinary intelligence is not required to speculate about the phrase's meaning, and MCL 257.648 provides fair notice of what conduct is proscribed. We hold that MCL 257.648 requires drivers to use a turn signal when changing lanes on a highway and is not unconstitutionally vague."
Precisely, I have read it several times trying to break down all the elements, its a total scam and he pulled it from thin air. Shame...

Offline #1Gunner

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2015, 05:11:32 PM »
Precisely, I have read it several times trying to break down all the elements, its a total scam and he pulled it from thin air. Shame...
I am going to fight it so I will let you know what happens. I am not sure if I want to take it to trial or just cut a deal...

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open Carry on a Moped
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2015, 05:26:10 PM »
In most jurisdictions, demanding a formal hearing will get you a pre-trial conference with a prosecuting attorney.
The prosecutor's job seems to be to negotiate a deal that avoids tying up a courtroom over an alleged civil infraction.

Both times (two different counties/courts) I demanded a formal hearing without an attorney, the court clerk went ahead and scheduled an INformal hearing. Had to call them and make them fix it, while they claimed it was an honest mistake.

Just remember that if it comes to trial, the standard for civil infractions is 'preponderance of evidence', and to a copsucking judge, a cop saying you did it while you say you didn't is about 90% preponderance when they only need 51%. (even the fairest of judges will probably give the cop's word 60% if your word is the only opposing evidence)

I'd want to subpoena the dash cam if I were you.
If you can do it before pre-trial conference, it might help convince the prosecutor that's it's easier to just drop it than to go chasing evidence for your discovery demands.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 05:37:00 PM by CitizensHaveRights »
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?