Author Topic: Art Beat n Eats  (Read 36145 times)

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Offline TheQ

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 01:55:47 PM »
The meeting starts at 19:30 so, who is all going? I know I will be.This is where it's being held... Commission Room: 211 S Williams St, on the 3rd floor, room 315. As said, they do have the AB&E 2nd amendment issue on the official agenda.

Any idea how long the meeting will be?

How far down are we on the agenda?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 01:57:28 PM »
The meeting starts at 19:30 so, who is all going? I know I will be.This is where it's being held... Commission Room: 211 S Williams St, on the 3rd floor, room 315. As said, they do have the AB&E 2nd amendment issue on the official agenda.

Looks like the agenda can be found here:

http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal/sites/default/files/meetings/City%20Commission/2010/20100816a.html
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline guardkbouche

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2010, 02:00:47 PM »


Any idea how long the meeting will be?

How far down are we on the agenda?
[/quote]

The meeting will be an hour long and I think we're number 18 on the agenda.

Offline TheQ

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 02:11:28 PM »
The meeting will be an hour long and I think we're number 18 on the agenda.

We are #18 of 23 on the agenda.  From the meeting minutes of the past, typical meetings have 15-20 agenda items and last until 10:30-1:30 AM.  See here.

The earliest I've seen a meeting get out (by my spot check of the minutes) is 9:30 PM.  I think it'll probably be more than an hour. ;)

As such -- I have family responsibilities that require I be home at 10 PM, so sadly, I won't be able to make it.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 04:18:31 PM »
which also means that i cannot make it.

sorry everyone!
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline eVo

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2010, 04:40:26 PM »
my brother and I will be there tonite, we have already discussed it!

Offline FatboyCykes

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2010, 04:51:21 PM »
Quote
ALERT! Jon Witz Will Not Sign The Amended Agreement

    I have been contacted personally by Jon Witz this afternoon. He is backtracking and now will not sign the Amended Contract, no matter what the City of Royal Oak does.


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?76770-Arts-Beats-and-Eats&p=1332582&viewfull=1#post1332582

Offline TheQ

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2010, 05:01:40 PM »
Quote
ALERT! Jon Witz Will Not Sign The Amended Agreement

    I have been contacted personally by Jon Witz this afternoon. He is backtracking and now will not sign the Amended Contract, no matter what the City of Royal Oak does.


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?76770-Arts-Beats-and-Eats&p=1332582&viewfull=1#post1332582

That is his right, and he might have a valid civil action against the city if they refuse to enforce the part of the contract they signed.  Sadly the city will be in the following situation:
  • They will be exposed to liability if they harass a gun carrier.
  • They will be exposed to liability if they do not.

Perhaps the city will be more careful with how they make contracts in the future.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline emt805

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2010, 07:53:13 PM »
What happened at the meeting?
I found Arts, Beats & Eats on facebook and thought they would be having a field day with this but only saw two people admitting they where not going to the event this year because of them allowing guns. This may turn out to be my first oc event.

Offline FatboyCykes

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2010, 09:22:50 PM »
Meeting is currently in session.

Offline cabman1

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2010, 01:19:36 AM »
From 1999 to 2003 there were 494 murders caused by guns in Michigan
from 1999 to 2003 there were 2588 drunk driving fatalities in Michigan
and the founder of arts beats and eats in Royal Oak said that there shouldn't be any guns there because of the kids and alcohol.. Statistics say there shouldn't be any booze there because there are going to be some dummy drive home drunk!!!
THINK ABOUT THE KIDS
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Offline DGerard

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2010, 10:51:28 AM »
This event has taken center stage for our cause and we have won this battle in a very liberal town(Royal Oak)...It's no less than a breath of fresh air for the entire membership across the entire state...we should use the moment to further inform and educate the public at this event...I plan to attend with MOC brochures in hand...


Edited missing word in and corrected educate for ya

Autosurgeon
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 11:23:44 AM by autosurgeon »
“Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” Benjamin Franklin

Offline sprinklerguy28

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2010, 02:20:45 PM »
Thank you again to everyone who supported this effort. To see the attendance by supporters grow from meeting to meeting was unbelievable. To those of you who spoke even when you were uncomfortable, my deepest thanks to you. It's not easy to step outside your comfort zone, but when you do as I'm sure you have seen and felt the rewards are immeasurable.

I was the last gun carrying supporter to walk out of the building last night. There on the steps everyone was gathered talking, smiling, and shaking hands. Not only was it a proud moment to see OC and CCers conversing and relishing in our accomplishment, it was even a greater joy to know that you all were not just supporters, but friends. To know when the time comes again, and trust me it will, that we will again stand strong together with more new friends and fight the good fight. Congratulations to all, and again my most heart felt thanks to all of you.

doesntmatter

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2010, 02:27:35 PM »
I'm going to stir the pot, respectfully:

I've read your information page, some points of view, and multiple pages of comments on this forum.  I must say that although many of you are giddy with anticipation of carrying at this weekend's festival, I'd like to enlighten you on some things, from a police officers point of view.  

For starters, some members on this forum are overly infatuated with their firearm and holster.  Some of the comments made and issues discussed reminds me of the addicted video-gamer, who spends all of their time learning every cheat code available, buying the best controller, and then spending most awake hours trying to beat the game.  It appears almost addictive to some, although 99.9% of those who do carry will never, ever, ever, use it.  Although these same people might be "law-abiding" citizens, most certainly doesn't preclude the fact that many of these infatuated gun collectors are mentally unstable, criminal record or not.

Which leads to my second point...mental stability.  "I'm ready to defend my family, my country, and my honor..."  Well, that's great.  But, have you ever killed anyone, much less shot anyone?  Have you ever had to make that final decision and triumph over fight or flight?  Well ladies and gentleman, I have and it sucks.  The zeal of some posts regarding how ready the are to battle all evil, whether at the Arts, Beats and Eats Festival, the Cherry Festival, or even the local library, is a mirage.  I'm astounded by the number of people ready to strap on their combat pistol with the latest military holster right out of Afghanistan, and have no idea how to mentally prepare to actually put a muzzle against another humans head and pull the trigger.  Pulling the trigger is the easiest part, people...what lies ahead in the years to come isn't.

Which brings me to my third point...why exposed?  Why not concealed?  Do you really think just because you're .50 cal is hanging off your Levi's means no one's going to test you?  I carry a pistol, ok, two pistols, every day to work and do you think that stops people from telling me to f*** off?  Has that stopped not one, but two people during my tenure as an officer of trying to take my life?  Nope...not at all.  If you think  just because you're strapped up and ready to go that all problems fall to the way side, you're wrong.  Problems multiply because rather than just walking away as most do, that piece of courage on your hip may get you into trouble.  

And lastly...if not concealed and open to everyone to see, how many hours have you trained in weapon retention?  Hours, minutes...oh, I have a game plan in my mind if it happens?  People, weapon retention takes YEARS to become proficient at, and even then, you can still fail at retaining your weapon, should someone try to disarm you.  I know, because the first person that tried to take my life, attempted to disarm me of my Glock.  He lost.  Why?  Because I trained at it...standing and on the ground.  If you sign up for such a huge responsibility like Open Carry, you signed up for weapon retention as well.

I'll end by saying that I don't disagree with citizens protecting themselves, but believe it should be concealed and bi-annual training be required.  I'm against Open Carry on the hip and I'm also very unsettled by the amount of almost juvenile gusto about carrying a loaded firearm hanging off the hip like Han Solo, around an art fair and thousands of kids.  I'll bet that nearly every poster on here has never had to punch a hole in the side of someone's head before and has no idea the events that transpire afterward.  The nightmares, the therapy, the civil lawsuits, the media scrutiny (you shoot someone at the fair this weekend, you can bet CNN will be interviewing your ex-wife), the lawyer fees, etc., etc.  You ACCIDENTALLY shoot someone because you don't practice firearms safety, weapon retention or target acquisition, and you'll be the first Open Carry practitioner to land in prison.  Not county jail, prison.  No fun.  

I respect your rights, but that doesn't mean that it's right.  I suggest that you carry concealed, train with it often, along with weapon retention, and really, really dig deep inside and assess if you can handle being involved in a shooting.  Really assess if you have the patience, fortitude and maturity to Openly Carry a firearm in public.  Really understand that if you pull the trigger and something goes wrong, you will lose your life over it (prison).  Accuracy in a stressful shooting is for $#|t, and if you decide to pull the trigger this weekend at a festival and hit a bystander, you're *%@.  You, your wife, your kids...everyone is @#%&.  Forget about paying for little Timmy's college or holding onto that ranch in the suburbs, 'cause you'll be in prison and you're family will be in a studio apartment living off of food stamps.  I paint a @#$% picture folks, but it's the truth.  This is not a time for whimsical thoughts of being Billy-Bad Ass with the latest and greatest on your hip, as many posters seem to be.  This is the ultimate responsibility where you can have absolutely no error...NONE.    

DM

DM I respect you position but please maintain decorum and don't use foul language in your posts. I have edited them out for you.

Thank You Moderation Team
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 03:51:01 PM by autosurgeon »

Offline emt805

  • Posts: 229
Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2010, 02:46:27 PM »
First up we do not put a muzzle against another humans head and pull the trigger, we shoot to stop not shoot to kill.

I open carry for the following reasons:

1. I would rather deter a crime than defend against a crime. Odds are that if a criminal is sizing me up as a target, and they see the gun, they will simply go down the street one block, or wait a couple minutes for me to leave. Why would a criminal choose to attack a target that is visibly armed when there are hundreds of other targets readily available that don't appear to be armed? The criminal has as goals to obtain what they desire with the least amount of hassle/problems, to not get caught, and to not get shot. Attacking a visibly armed citizen is counterproductive to all three goals.

2. Open carry offers faster draw time then having to go through or around the concealing garment to get to the gun.

3. I like to present to the public the image that it is perfectly acceptable and normal for an American to engage in normal activities during normal day to day life and have the means available to them of self protection. The public is never going to get over their negative feelings towards guns if all they ever see are the negative images presented by the media and the Brady Bunch. The sentiments of the "pro-gun" crowd that guns are better concealed only fosters the idea that guns are bad and should be hidden away - in my humble opinion.

If you are so against oc then you do not support leo's carrying either? Since the would be carrying like han solo each day at work. The only reason for someone to unholster their firearm at the abe would they felt a threat to their life or the life of a loved one and not to brandish or show off.


Offline sprinklerguy28

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2010, 03:06:45 PM »
Doesntmatter,

Your concerns are valid. They are just as valid to those who carry concealed. A thin t-shirt over my "latest and greatest" or behind is irrelevant. With either form of carry comes responsibility. You asked if "we" are ready to take a life. I would asked the same of law enforcement. Even with training many LEOs have hesitated or failed to react, because they were not ready. You have a dangerous job and deal primarily with the scum of society. Remember we are not them. I watch the news and see a cop wrongfully beat up or kill someone. Then I think about it and realize that the one bad LEO does not represent you and your fellow coworkers. As we must be careful of judging all LEOs based on the actions of a few, you must do the same of those who legally carry. Every question you pose could be presented to law enforcement. In the end it would be futile as there are those who take their role as a LEO or non LEO citizen very seriously and those who don't. To direct your questions at only those who OC is irresponsible, to ask them of any person who carries a gun regardless of their profession or method of carry is looking out for all of our best interest. For LEOs and private citizens to argue about if we "should" OC is ridiculous. The law is clear, we are allowed to, and you are paid to uphold the law.

Why not focus on the real issue at hand? How can we all work together peacefully to stop the spread of that other popular group who is always in the media? You know they go by various names, gangs, criminals, thief, murderer, robber, thug,rapest etc. etc. We both stand on the right side of the law. so why are there issues.

I thank you for your post. You may take heat but I do know it will cause many to stop and think, and that my friend is a good thing.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 03:08:36 PM by sprinklerguy28 »

Offline bob

  • Posts: 2
Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2010, 03:08:56 PM »
I'm going to stir the pot, respectfully:

I've read your information page, some points of view, and multiple pages of comments on this forum.  I must say that although many of you are giddy with anticipation of carrying at this weekend's festival, I'd like to enlighten you on some things, from a police officers point of view.  

For starters, some members on this forum are overly infatuated with their firearm and holster.  Some of the comments made and issues discussed reminds me of the addicted video-gamer, who spends all of their time learning every cheat code available, buying the best controller, and then spending most awake hours trying to beat the game.  It appears almost addictive to some, although 99.9% of those who do carry will never, ever, ever, use it.  Although these same people might be "law-abiding" citizens, most certainly doesn't preclude the fact that many of these infatuated gun collectors are mentally unstable, criminal record or not.

Which leads to my second point...mental stability.  "I'm ready to defend my family, my country, and my honor..."  Well, that's great.  But, have you ever killed anyone, much less shot anyone?  Have you ever had to make that final decision and triumph over fight or flight?  Well ladies and gentleman, I have and it sucks.  The zeal of some posts regarding how ready the are to battle all evil, whether at the Arts, Beats and Eats Festival, the Cherry Festival, or even the local library, is a mirage.  I'm astounded by the number of people ready to strap on their combat pistol with the latest military holster right out of Afghanistan, and have no idea how to mentally prepare to actually put a muzzle against another humans head and pull the trigger.  Pulling the trigger is the easiest part, people...what lies ahead in the years to come isn't.

Which brings me to my third point...why exposed?  Why not concealed?  Do you really think just because you're .50 cal is hanging off your Levi's means no one's going to test you?  I carry a pistol, ok, two pistols, every day to work and do you think that stops people from telling me to f*** off?  Has that stopped not one, but two people during my tenure as an officer of trying to take my life?  Nope...not at all.  If you think  just because you're strapped up and ready to go that all problems fall to the way side, you're wrong.  Problems multiply because rather than just walking away as most do, that piece of courage on your hip may get you into trouble.  

And lastly...if not concealed and open to everyone to see, how many hours have you trained in weapon retention?  Hours, minutes...oh, I have a game plan in my mind if it happens?  People, weapon retention takes YEARS to become proficient at, and even then, you can still fail at retaining your weapon, should someone try to disarm you.  I know, because the first person that tried to take my life, attempted to disarm me of my Glock.  He lost.  Why?  Because I trained at it...standing and on the ground.  If you sign up for such a huge responsibility like Open Carry, you signed up for weapon retention as well.

I'll end by saying that I don't disagree with citizens protecting themselves, but believe it should be concealed and bi-annual training be required.  I'm against Open Carry on the hip and I'm also very unsettled by the amount of almost juvenile gusto about carrying a loaded firearm hanging off the hip like Han Solo, around an art fair and thousands of kids.  I'll bet that nearly every poster on here has never had to punch a hole in the side of someone's head before and has no idea the events that transpire afterward.  The nightmares, the therapy, the civil lawsuits, the media scrutiny (you shoot someone at the fair this weekend, you can bet CNN will be interviewing your ex-wife), the lawyer fees, etc., etc.  You ACCIDENTALLY shoot someone because you don't practice firearms safety, weapon retention or target acquisition, and you'll be the first Open Carry practitioner to land in prison.  Not county jail, prison.  No fun.  

I respect your rights, but that doesn't mean that it's right.  I suggest that you carry concealed, train with it often, along with weapon retention, and really, really dig deep inside and assess if you can handle being involved in a shooting.  Really assess if you have the patience, fortitude and maturity to Openly Carry a firearm in public.  Really understand that if you pull the trigger and something goes wrong, you will lose your life over it (prison).  Accuracy in a stressful shooting is for $#|t, and if you decide to pull the trigger this weekend at a festival and hit a bystander, you're f**ked.  You, your wife, your kids...everyone is screwed.  Forget about paying for little Timmy's college or holding onto that ranch in the suburbs, 'cause you'll be in prison and you're family will be in a studio apartment living off of food stamps.  I paint a shitty picture folks, but it's the truth.  This is not a time for whimsical thoughts of being Billy-Bad Ass with the latest and greatest on your hip, as many posters seem to be.  This is the ultimate responsibility where you can have absolutely no error...NONE.    

DM

No offense but I'd bet a lot of money on most of the members on this forum being able to shoot better and more accurate than most law enforcement.  I've seen cops when they have to qualify and most of them have not shot their weapon since the last time they qualified.  Even ones with access to their own police ranges.

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2010, 03:52:49 PM »
Doesntmatter,

Your concerns are valid. They are just as valid to those who carry concealed. A thin t-shirt over my "latest and greatest" or behind is irrelevant. With either form of carry comes responsibility. You asked if "we" are ready to take a life. I would asked the same of law enforcement. Even with training many LEOs have hesitated or failed to react, because they were not ready. You have a dangerous job and deal primarily with the scum of society. Remember we are not them. I watch the news and see a cop wrongfully beat up or kill someone. Then I think about it and realize that the one bad LEO does not represent you and your fellow coworkers. As we must be careful of judging all LEOs based on the actions of a few, you must do the same of those who legally carry. Every question you pose could be presented to law enforcement. In the end it would be futile as there are those who take their role as a LEO or non LEO citizen very seriously and those who don't. To direct your questions at only those who OC is irresponsible, to ask them of any person who carries a gun regardless of their profession or method of carry is looking out for all of our best interest. For LEOs and private citizens to argue about if we "should" OC is ridiculous. The law is clear, we are allowed to, and you are paid to uphold the law.

Why not focus on the real issue at hand? How can we all work together peacefully to stop the spread of that other popular group who is always in the media? You know they go by various names, gangs, criminals, thief, murderer, robber, thug,rapest etc. etc. We both stand on the right side of the law. so why are there issues.

I thank you for your post. You may take heat but I do know it will cause many to stop and think, and that my friend is a good thing.

Well said Scott!

Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline Grifter

  • Posts: 7
Re: Art Beat n Eats
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2010, 05:57:45 PM »
I'll bet that nearly every poster on here has never had to punch a hole in the side of someone's head before and has no idea the events that transpire afterward.

I will be your huckleberry. Lets meet and compare war stories cuz I got a funny feeling in 2 tours I have put my sites / scopes on more heads and bodies and pulled the trigger more times then you will in your entire career as an Officer in city/ township X. Not sure what the actual count is here, but there are a number of OEF/OIF Vets running around here who have had to shoot the enemy w/ malice and live with those thoughts every day in silence. Most of them have hundreds of hours and years invested in training, marksmanship and self-defense. Compare that to the 25 hours worth cop students in the state acadamys get in the 60-90 day long acadamy (more then likely the same acad. that you attended and got licensed to be a cop at). And if you spent more then 3 days a year since involved in Dept. mandated retraining revolving around Shooting improvement and or self defense training I would personally be surprised. Hence why I carry my own weapon. Cops are notoriously under trained and over worked, and usually under-manned. Fair bet says neither you or your dept attains anything more then average. 

I for one would be interested to know what Dept./ city you work for?

 RLTW