Art Beat n Eats

[wardog6t]

Repectfully, I do not see the need in the comparison of peace officers and military combat veterans. I think we all no who has more live fire, under fire training and real world experiance. KIA's or the lack of, is something a peace officer seldom will engage or understand. From a personal point of view it would seem that civilians,media and LEO's seem to want to label OCers as some sort of untrained, gun toting, elmer fudd looking, drunks as they did with hunters in the 60s-70's. No one seems to want to try and consider that most of us are well trained people. Some have paid large amounts of there personal finances for civilian training, I am not talking about CPL training. Some OCers have more combat related firearms training and real world missions than most LEA's most elite teams. This is not to be said for the whole. As most of us, I think will agree. We do have our share of less then stellar partipants in the OC community. However to dump everyone in to one catagory is, as one OCer recently stated. Childish. If a person as individual does not wish to OC or feel comfortable. Well Good! However if a person feels responsible and profecient enough with there firearm. Great! Its a matter of personal choice and OUR right. Someone's personal feelings in regards to my rights should and will have no effect on me exercising my rights.... I really do not understand why anyone would not want to know if a person is carrying a firearm. I understand the point of ,out of site out of mind. But... Its really a childish complaint to an adult responsability.

[Agent1]

doesntmatter's opinion is true to his (or her) handle. The law is the law. I just hope that as a LEO you uphold the State Constitution, The US Constitution and the laws of this State. Regardless weather you agree with them or not. I for one do appritiate your comments and invite you to openly share your encounters and experiences with groups such as this. It is a win win when the LAC and LEO can see things through each others eyes, without ego's interfering.

doesntmatter, I take it that you have this misconception that everyone on the street carrying a firearm is under trained. I am sure that some of the individuals here could use a bit more training but the majority of this group probably sends more rounds down-range in a month then most LEO's do in a year. I understand that is "Fam. Fire" and not weapons retension. I trained and trained with LEO's and Civilins for years and proper training is not cheap. The average person can not afford to run off to Thunder Ranch or Black Water for a week (I have, at someone elses expense). LEO's have little excuse to be lacking in training. There is rarely any cost to them out of pocket.

As for statements such as "have no idea how to mentally prepare to actually put a muzzle against another humans head and pull the trigger." Well that is just a prision sentence weather you are a Joe Citizen or a LEO.  I have no interest in measuring johnsons with you but if you ever read this just take comfort in knowing that you are not alone. Know this this as well, I AM PREPARED! My manorisms about dealing with those who would like to put me on the wrong side of dirt changed some time ago. I WILL be the ONE going home at the end of the day!

[TheQ]

DM brings up a good point.  We should practice our retention/draws from many different positions.

I too would like to hear more of his thoughts when they are presented constructively.

[doesntmatter]

Posters-awesome discussion...I knew jumping on here for a bit of debate would get the pot stirring, but I do appreciate the feedback.  I can't possibly address everyone individually, but I'll try to hit some common rebuttals. 

First, the law.  I think this is your strongest point.  "It's legal, therefore, if a citizens chooses to OC, then end of discussion."  But I restate, "Just because it's your right, doesn't make it right."  Listen, I'm all with ya that if you're in an area where crime is rampant, then by all means being armed makes sense (my opinion, concealed).  But a Glock exposed at an art festival in Royal Oak?  A Desert Eagle at the cider mill, while picking a pumpkin with the kiddies?  Dual, six-shooter revolvers at the mall while visiting Santa?  I'm being a bit of a smart-ass (as usual), but who's to say that it won't happen?  Some nut-job is going to push the limits, guaranteed.  Seriously, just because it's legal in Michigan to have sex with a 16-year old high school student, doesn't make it right…and just because it's legal to openly carry a combat pistol at this weekends art festival, with thousands of kids around and being in a large crowd, which is tactically troublesome anyway, just isn't logical.

Second, is the comparison of an officer to a private citizen, as it relates to firearms proficiency.  As Grifter inquired, I've worked for one of the biggest LE agencies in MI for 15 years.  I'm certain some citizens take the responsibility of training on their own, which is fantastic.  However, I'll bet that of all the citizens that can legally OC, 99% of them won't.  In Michigan, officers are required to train and qualify yearly, bi-annually, what have you.  Folks, that's far better than nothing.  We are trained at the academy and must pass qualifications or our weapon is taken away...that's not to mention the additional training we receive while on the job.  In the city I work in, we handle multiple priority runs a day, which desensitizes us to some high-risk situations.  And guess what people, we sometimes still get it WRONG!  Almost all of our fatal shootings in the city are deemed justified, at least in the past 15 years that I remember.  But, we still screw up sometimes!  I don't argue the points that some made who stated officers fail in some fatal scenarios, but if we dumped a group of officers and random OC citizens into a practical fatal-force scenario, the officers will fair better.  Why?  Because they are trained to do so, and especially cities like Detroit, where they do it daily.  My problem isn't with the 1% who will train as they should; it's the 99% of unscreened OC'ers who will not.

Lastly, is the liability issue.  All of you shirked from addressing it.  If I'm acting in the performance of my duty, whether on duty or off duty, and not drunk off my ass, I'm immune to civil liability.  What protections do you have OC'er's?  As I stated before, have you really, really thought about the repercussions of an "Oops!"  Just in 2010, there are three cases in the SE area where citizens have used fatal force and are now being PROSECUTED for it.  The first is the guy who shot the home invasion suspect after a brief foot pursuit, the second is the guy who fired a round at a would-be robber, thus killing an elderly lady who was in her home, and the third is a guy who fired a round while being jumped by two guys, thus shooting a 16 year old who was also in her home.  Folks, there's no insurance to cover those lawsuits.  OC during a family festival, in a large crowd, jumps your liability by 1,000%.  If you screw up and someone gets hurt, good luck finding an Oakland Co jury that will be sympathetic to your OC rights. 

Oh, and to Grifter and Grifter alone:  I'll be your Huckleberry, too.  Sincerely, I thank you for your service and living through two tours of duty.  There is no sarcasm there.  I also appreciate your belief that we're overworked, under-trained and undermanned.  It's all true.  Now, let me respond to your tirade on comparing resumes:  I won't compare your experience on shooting someone through a scope at 200 yards away and my experience of being so close I could taste their blood on my lips and the splatter burned my eyes.  Up close and personal beats video game target practice any day, just ask Grossman.  You fought as a unit; I was alone.  I didn't have the luxury of cover, air support or suppressive fire.  Mano-a-mano and pure rage was I all had…thank God for my secondary.  The second incident, I was fired upon and my partner and I fired back, striking the $#|t-head.  So, I'll end it by stating don't rag on me and I won't rag on you, capiche?  Sorry Huckleberry, you started it…       

I'll close off my discussion here and stop bogging down your blog.  My opinion is carry, but carry concealed.  Train in all aspects of firearms.  And, get a gut-check about the liability of carrying and the repercussions thereafter.  Lastly, use common sense on where to OC.  Thank you for the debate, it was informational.  Be safe…

[cabman1]

you said use common sense on where to oc !!  We do I open carry everywhere I go I dont go to places I cant oc make makes sense to you might not to all the rest of us!!!  Thank you for your opinion either way!!

[Agent1]

First off I would like to thank you for your service and galentry
Next, I hope that my first post didn't sound like I was critisizing your expertise.

Lastly, is the liability issue. 

I believe that this is an often over looked aspect in most peoples lives in general, not just in there day to day firearms encounters. It is very important in todays society and should be touched upon more often.

 

My opinion is carry, but carry concealed.  Train in all aspects of firearms.  And, get a gut-check about the liability of carrying and the repercussions thereafter.  Lastly, use common sense on where to OC.  Thank you for the debate, it was informational.  Be safe…

All excellent opinion points and well received. Thank you.  I admit that I CC more than OC but that is a preference that I have based on my experience. I mostly OC out of conveinence, but for each his own and I would never try to tell someone that their way was the wrong way.


Be Safe as well!

[Grifter]

     Oh, and to Grifter and Grifter alone:  I'll be your Huckleberry, too.  Sincerely, I thank you for your service and living through two tours of duty.  There is no sarcasm there.  I also appreciate your belief that we're overworked, under-trained and undermanned.  It's all true.  Now, let me respond to your tirade on comparing resumes:  I won't compare your experience on shooting someone through a scope at 200 yards away and my experience of being so close I could taste their blood on my lips and the splatter burned my eyes.  Up close and personal beats video game target practice any day, just ask Grossman.  You fought as a unit; I was alone.  I didn't have the luxury of cover, air support or suppressive fire.  Mano-a-mano and pure rage was I all had…thank God for my secondary.  The second incident, I was fired upon and my partner and I fired back, striking the $#|t-head.  So, I'll end it by stating don't rag on me and I won't rag on you, capiche?  Sorry Huckleberry, you started it…   ging down your blog.  My opinion is carry, but carry concealed.  Train in all aspects of firearms.  And, get a gut-check about the liability of carrying and the repercussions thereafter.  Lastly, use common sense on where to OC.  Thank you for the debate, it was informational.  Be safe…

Please dont "close off" your discussion. opinions and our ability to "discuss" is part of what makes the country the best.

I'd like to respond, I wasnt really shooting for a head to head kills on resumes comparison, although I see I came off that way. And yes I have tasted the blood too. To steal a Native American warrior thought process "my kbar is stained"..its been that close and farther then a measly 200 yards, and yes I had tons of Air support and still only a spotter to cover my butt. I wasnt really hinting at the actuals..it was more your reference to PTSD that I was trying to speak too. Namely theres lotsa smucks like myself and otherwise walking around who know and feel that every day.

Thanks for being a cop and covering our butts while we are gone. I personally would love to see more Americans armed and properly trained to use their weapon, but i think thats just a pipe dream.

[emt805]

Posted today on facebook. The nerve, still thinks that they are "targeted because of the size of the event.


A note from the festival producer Jon Witz
.by Arts, Beats & Eats on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 at 5:57pm.
 To our festival fans and friends,

 

I am writing in regard to a few concerns we've had from our festival patrons and fans.

 

My name is Jon Witz and I produce Ford Arts, Beats & Eats. This is a note to you written by me from the heart and not a public relations statement, I have three young kids 6-11 (maybe not young anymore) and I live in Troy. As most of you know, it's been a policy of ours not to allow hand guns into the event for twelve years.

 

One thing I've learned in the last couple of months is that individuals in Michigan and 43 other states actually have the rights to carry a holstered side arm in virtually everywhere they travel. This includes Oakland County Parks (which just had to change their policy) or walking into downtown Royal Oak for dinner, or at other family festivals. The City of Royal Oak and the festival recently changed their policy because they thought they would be violating the law. Nothing more. Not one of the Royal Oak commissioners thinks guns should be allowed at the festival, and they join a vast majority of our society including most gun owners.

 

The organization that fought for their rights to carry guns has no plans to come to the festival in any large group, and the majority of this very small group won't even be attending. It's an absolute fallacy that there will be any visible amount of weapons at the festival, and I am asking you to get the word out to any friends that are considering not attending due to this unfortunate state law. By not attending you will take your frustration out on 60 charities, artists, musicians, restaurants, unique Royal Oak businesses and cultural organizations that have been a part of the festival for years. They would also be penalizing a festival that COMPLETELY AGREES WITH THEM! We are asking everyone to consider a different course of action, which will help fix the problem not penalize the hundreds of good organizations that will involved in ABE, which is to write a letter to your state senator and representative to get the law changed for next year. I will even write a sample letter for you to start and you can change and personalize it as you wish.

 

It's very clear to me that our event was a target due to its high profile, but will not be a place that more than a few of these people with guns are actually coming to. PLEASE put your energy to fixing an archaic law that needs to be changed. Please also note that our festival, like others, has not searched people when they come in, and we've had zero incidents involving hand guns in our history. In this light, people with concealed weapons and permits could be at our event, just like they could be sitting next to you at a restaurant or in a movie theatre. We have a strong police and private security presence and our feeling is that we would be, as we've always been, one of the safest places to be in Metro Detroit on Labor Day Weekend.

 

If the City and festival upheld its policy, two things would have actually happened: One, the city would have been open to many costly lawsuits, and two, the gun owners would have rallied outside the festival with a large amount of people to protest. By making this change now, we are actually reducing the number of gun owners that will be at the festival. Such a scenario could easily be a worse situation. In fact, I would be more uncomfortable with my family if there was a big issue about it from the open carry gun advocates then otherwise. It would have been a drain on police and law enforcement and put the media spotlight on the people who want to promote carrying guns.

 

Again, since we changed our policy, it does not mean that myself, or the festival, or the City Commission of Royal Oak lacks principle or back bone. You have my word that I will be personally leading charge after the festival to amend this law by the end of the year.

 

Thank you for your consideration and look forward to seeing everyone at Ford Arts, Beats & Eats

 

Jon Witz

Producer

[fozzy71]

........ You have my word that I will be personally leading charge after the festival to amend this law by the end of the year.

 .....

LOL, good luck.

[TheQ]

In this light, people with concealed weapons and permits could be at our event, just like they could be sitting next to you at a restaurant or in a movie theatre.

Goes to show you how much he knows about firearm laws in Michigan.  Many movie theaters are over the legally allowable capacity of a seated capacity gathering place to conceal a gun.

[judge]

Somewhere ,it sounds like I missed something. It read like CC isn't going  to be challenged but OC is. As A change of policy? Could someone bring me up to speed? If thats the case, PLEASE hear me out, I DON'T have a problem with ALL of you thinking I,m wrong. This is JUST a thought, If, we settle for this, then only cpl people have rights, the state law IS compromised. Both Witz and doesntmatter sound reasonable about this compromise. So, is it possible to push to hard and turn public opinion against us? Right now most of the cpl people I've talked to don't want to OC  and think OC at this event isn't right. Now I'm new ,you all have done the hard work that I get to profit from. I,m just wondering if this isn't a good time to turn this to our advantage? By that, I mean one of the stated goals is to desensitize the public. So, this year let them see that being around hidden guns is no big deal. Not that they haven't been all a long. But with a little PR work we could also sound reasonable and not give Witz the chance to use this to rally public opinion against us.  Again this is JUST a thought.

[JoeCar]

Mr. Witz is emotional right now. He is on a mission to make the world a better place for our children. The lawyer already checked other festivals around Mi. and saw that those events did not have any firearm issues from those who open carried. You have a right to your life and you have a right to defend it, no matter the circumstance. If you want to see outrage, try carrying a long guy at the festival. All of us who carry have to use discretion. This is all new to Mi. and even unto myself. We have a federal 2nd Amend. and Art. 1 Sec. 6 of the Mi. Constitution. We have a right to bear arms if we so choose. It is an individual right and not a group right. The purpose of government is to protect our rights and not infringe on them. We are not a democracy in which the majority gets to vote on which rights we get to retain. Why does Mr. Witz promote these events? He gets rich from them. Providing alcohol helps him get rich faster and he probably splits the proceeds with the city. Set an example for the children, Mr. Witz, get rid of alcohol from your venue. Alcohol is an addictive. Alcohol causes more deaths per year than firearms. Firearms in the hands of the citizens protect our rights. They are our liberty teeth against tyrants.

[judge]

I agree with everything you wrote. My post read the way it did to get some other perspectives then my own. Thats why I asked if the situation is  CC allowed now but not OC. My personal opinion is settling for that would mean royal oak/witz just got the right to modify CC rules. When Witz and others say they don't want to see innocent by-standers get hurt, I'm hearing, if I get hurt,I'm not a innocent by-stander. I'm also hearing that they think I might have to defend myself. If Witz has everything so under control then there's no way I'll shoot a innocent by-stander. When a man on TV says "do they really need to CC or OC or are they doing it just because they can? "I'm hearing a man say until he sees a threat to me I shouldn't carry. Someone says I might trigger an act of aggression ,their saying they don't care that I'm the one thats doing something legal that I should give up so I can take the responsibility of preventing someone else from doing something illegal. AGAINST ME. Last summer I was sitting on my porch not a soul in sight so now someone could say I was just carrying because I could 30 seconds later, a man walks across my yard with 2 loose pit bulls that later killed another dog in front of the owner. now I'm carrying cause I need to?  I did want to get to the idea that if the media thinks the majority of people are against us theres a chance that they will start slanting their reports against us. doesntmatter brought up a very good point about combat pistols. If a bad guy is shot and the person behind him gets shot by a pass thru no one is ever going to blame the bad guy.           

[Saabaru]

Interesting.


http://www.artsbeatseats.com/?q=node/32

[kryptonian]

somebody please save me a lot of mouse clicking and scrolling thru the posts. from what i gather OC will be allowed in AB+E and OCers will be there right? i missed the news this past week.If so i'll be there. organized pack or individually scattered around different times and days? i read their petition garbage on the website.

after all the publicity this got you KNOW people are going to say stuff to you and expect lots of "happy now gun nut?" or spew out a bunch of misrepresented negative stereotype phrases. be ready. get your answers on tap. it'll be crowded and a bunch of people are going to hear you. just remember - you're teflon. no stick. sizzles and rolls right off. my guess too is news will be there looking for you and video you from a distance. you'll probably never know they were there until you see yourself on the news. also will be the crowd interviews and they will only use the ones that support their media agenda. probably cell phone pics too.

just some advice and a heads up guys (and gals)

[emt805]

Mr. Witz is emotional right now. He is on a mission to make the world a better place for our children. The lawyer already checked other festivals around Mi. and saw that those events did not have any firearm issues from those who open carried. You have a right to your life and you have a right to defend it, no matter the circumstance. If you want to see outrage, try carrying a long guy at the festival. All of us who carry have to use discretion. This is all new to Mi. and even unto myself. We have a federal 2nd Amend. and Art. 1 Sec. 6 of the Mi. Constitution. We have a right to bear arms if we so choose. It is an individual right and not a group right. The purpose of government is to protect our rights and not infringe on them. We are not a democracy in which the majority gets to vote on which rights we get to retain. Why does Mr. Witz promote these events? He gets rich from them. Providing alcohol helps him get rich faster and he probably splits the proceeds with the city. Set an example for the children, Mr. Witz, get rid of alcohol from your venue. Alcohol is an addictive. Alcohol causes more deaths per year than firearms. Firearms in the hands of the citizens protect our rights. They are our liberty teeth against tyrants.

I was thinking the same thing this morning, if this is their response to oc a handgun what would be their response to a long gun oc at the event. Yes that may be a bit much but fun to think about.

[Yosemite Sam]

    It’s been a while since I posted here, but I have to tell you about what happened the other day. The wife and I and our granddaughter were shopping in Saginaw and Bay City on Wednesday. And we decide to go to Mc D’s for lunch in Bay City. While I was ordering our lunch, this gentleman came up to me and asked. How can I carry my gun like that out in the open? I explained to him how Michigan is a right to carry state and that it was perfectly legal to do so. He then asked me if I heard about this city that was having a festival, and people wanted to carry like I was. He couldn’t remember the name of the city. I said you mean Arts, Beats and Eats in Royal Oak, He said yea that’s it!! There were two other gentlemen listening as I was talking. So I told them that I’ll be Right back with some tri-folds. Instead they followed me out to my car. I handed them some tri-folds, we talked for awhile and then they left. When I went back in, my wife was talking to the Manager who took our order. She said to my wife I was wondering when someone was going to ask him about his gun? She noticed it when we walked in. The wife told her that it was legal and that she carries also, but not now, because she’s under doctors care (DRUGS). So I handed her a Tri-fold also. So the word is definitely getting out there!! And Thanks to all who made it happen at Arts, Beats and Eats in Royal Oak!!

[Small_Arms_Collector]

Mr. Witz is emotional right now. He is on a mission to make the world a better place for our children. The lawyer already checked other festivals around Mi. and saw that those events did not have any firearm issues from those who open carried. You have a right to your life and you have a right to defend it, no matter the circumstance. If you want to see outrage, try carrying a long guy at the festival. All of us who carry have to use discretion. This is all new to Mi. and even unto myself. We have a federal 2nd Amend. and Art. 1 Sec. 6 of the Mi. Constitution. We have a right to bear arms if we so choose. It is an individual right and not a group right. The purpose of government is to protect our rights and not infringe on them. We are not a democracy in which the majority gets to vote on which rights we get to retain. Why does Mr. Witz promote these events? He gets rich from them. Providing alcohol helps him get rich faster and he probably splits the proceeds with the city. Set an example for the children, Mr. Witz, get rid of alcohol from your venue. Alcohol is an addictive. Alcohol causes more deaths per year than firearms. Firearms in the hands of the citizens protect our rights. They are our liberty teeth against tyrants.

Thanks to that little comment, I am now seriously considering it, I was planning to simply OC a pistol, but I take that statement from witz as a personal declaration of war.

[JoeCar]

Hi Small Arms, that sentence that you highlighted was my thought. Mr. Witz did not say that himself. I was thinking to myself as to what that view would do for the gun haters. Other than that, as this group knows, even that type of carry is our right. As to my own plan, i'm going to incrementally desensitize the public with open carry, first. Here is Proverb 15:18 that I use to counsel myself :A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel. Take care..

[cabman1]

I pose to ask a question why in the world would anyone that believes in the 2nd amendment  go to this event????Exspecially when he said he was going to take the money and try to get lansing to change the law so he still doesnt want us there!!!!!