Author Topic: A discussion about gun ownership (Read 108119 times)

freediver · « **Reply #120 on:** October 16, 2015, 07:33:23 PM »

Actually, Mr Gryphon, we haven't been through this before. I'll ask again: can you give me an actual example of a society that was made safer and less volatile by more guns and further gun deregulation. I've been a longtime student of history and I can't think of any.

I await your answer.

freediver · « **Reply #121 on:** October 16, 2015, 07:38:46 PM »

Mr ultra: I've noticed from your posts that the only knowledge you deem worthy or acceptable is your own. You feel that anyone else, regardless of their education, experience or background, is somehow unacceptable if they disagree with you. You've decided that you alone have unlocked the keys to the universe. That is a breathtaking exhibition of closeminded intolerance that leaves me laughing and shaking my head.

gryphon · « **Reply #122 on:** October 16, 2015, 07:49:19 PM »

There is no enemy of freedom? I disagree.

Ultra · « **Reply #123 on:** October 16, 2015, 08:19:34 PM »

Telling other people what they think and how they feel. Nope. No arrogance or hypocrisy here. Nothing to see. Just move along.

Gryphon, TheQ, Part Deux, Fozzy71 and many others from within this thread and elsewhere around the board, I really enjoy your posts. Especially when I am exposed to the places where our thinking differ. Just thought I'd share that with you.

autosurgeon · « **Reply #124 on:** October 16, 2015, 10:05:05 PM »

The thing is for a society to be free one must accept the crazies and some risk. Freedom isn't free or comfortable..and it requires personal responsibility to protect ones self from the crazy ones in society for no matter how many laws you make there will always be that segment that ignores those laws.

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TucTom · « **Reply #125 on:** October 16, 2015, 10:13:34 PM »

autosurgeon, are you trying to say that nut will be nuts and criminals will still be criminals? THAT THERE IS CRAZY TALK!!

freediver · « **Reply #126 on:** October 17, 2015, 12:35:21 AM »

Mr auto surgeon: you're absolutely right that crazies will be crazy and criminals will be criminals. That will never change. It is the personal responsibility we accept while living in a free society.

But that doesn't mean that just because we're free, crazies and criminals ought to have access to firearms. We've all pointed out that many of the recent mass shooters bought their guns legally. EXACTLY! That's the problem! Our current gun ownership regulations aren't working. So, rather than just say "F***it, we need to take a few losses along the way", perhaps we should be working to solve the loopholes in our gun regulations. That's what this whole thread was about.

autosurgeon · « **Reply #127 on:** October 17, 2015, 08:35:08 AM »

Killing people other than in self defence is unlawful... Criminals ignore that the most serious of laws. Why do you think if we made it completly impossible for them to get Firearms in a lawful way that they wouldn't revert to getting them in an unlawful way...banning things even from certain segments of society does not work. Simply look to prohibition or more recently the war on drugs to see that.

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gryphon · « **Reply #128 on:** October 17, 2015, 09:45:13 AM »

Please Regulate Guns Like Cars!

Because we now regulate guns like we regulate cars, each state and city now recognizes your ~~drivers license~~ license to carry concealed.
We can finally buy and sell our ~~cars~~ firearms across state lines.
I can walk into a gun showroom and drive away with my new firearm in minutes.
You can rent a gun for the afternoon if your gun is in the shop.
You and your friends can ~~drive~~ shoot all you want on your own property.
You can now own all the guns and ammunition you want and you can store them anywhere you have room.
Several people can own and operate the same firearm.
Because we now regulate guns like we regulate cars, there is no age limit to own a gun. Parents, grandparents and relatives can now freely give guns to small children. You mail in a piece of paper, and the state sends you a new title for your gun in a few weeks. That is sweet.
The city provides gun-storage locations free of charge in front of no-gun zones in order to attract customers to downtown. About time.
Courts will no longer take your ~~cars~~ guns away during a bitter divorce.
You can rent a gun at the airport if you didn’t want to fly with your gun.
A gun dealership will lease you a firearm on a five year payment plan.
Now you can ship and buy gun part in the mail.
Now you can walk into the post office with your gun or gun parts.
Now that we regulate guns the way we regulate cars, even convicted felons can own a gun once they are off probation.
You can now own a gun of any length without having to ask the government for permission.
You can now put a muffler on your guns without having to ask your sheriff or police chief for permission. (My neighbors thank you.)
Your 16 year old can bring a gun to and from school, and to his after school job.
When your goofball nephew shoots a gun in public without a license, he now gets a ticket...and you get a phone call to come pick up your gun.
You can have gun stores and shooting ranges next door to schools, daycare centers, hospitals and churches! Halleluiah we’re free at last!
We will finally have gun shops on every other corner to sell ammunition and Doritos. Your local convenience store changes its name to Shoot-and-Scoot.
Now kids can get their concealed carry permit at 16 years of age.
Schools now offer gun safety and defensive shooting classes when kids are 15 years old.
Kids can carry concealed with adult supervision once they are 15 ½ years old and have taken their beginners class.
Some old people loose their concealed carry permit when they can’t pass the vision test.
There are no more gun safe and gun lock regulations!
You can build your own gun in your garage from a kit.
You will need a special firearms license to operate a gun weighing more than 26 thousand pounds in public.
Gun dealers and gunsmiths don’t need federal reporting requirements any longer.
You and your friends decide who will be the designated concealed carrier if you’re going drinking.
We’d finally get rid of national gun registration.
I might even get a tax credit if I buy a small and efficient gun. I love this country!

Unfortunately, politicians like power more than we like freedom. That is why we won’t regulate guns like we regulate cars.

autosurgeon · « **Reply #129 on:** October 17, 2015, 10:00:35 AM »

Heh

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freediver · « **Reply #130 on:** October 17, 2015, 01:11:29 PM »

Mr gryphon: I asked you a question a few posts back that you declined to answer. I'll ask it again. Since you are a proponent of further gun deregulation and increasing access to guns, can you give me an actual example of where this worked? Can you give me a concrete example of where less regulation and more guns made a society safer and less volatile?

gryphon · « **Reply #131 on:** October 17, 2015, 01:13:35 PM »

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

https://forums.miopencarry.org/index.php/topic,5092.msg41788.html#msg41788

TheQ · « **Reply #132 on:** October 17, 2015, 02:43:14 PM »

Quote from: freediver on October 16, 2015, 07:30:22 PM

While I am a longtime gun owner and carrier, I'm still educating myself on the issues of open carry.

Mitt Romney is a gun owner too...

freediver · « **Reply #133 on:** October 17, 2015, 04:45:17 PM »

Me gryphon, I asked for an actual example, not an opinion. It is VERY open to debate as to whether the USA is actually safer and less volatile. The trend according to CDC data is that gun deaths will surpass traffic deaths in 2015 and that trend is expected to continue in the coming years.

freediver · « **Reply #134 on:** October 17, 2015, 04:48:18 PM »

Mr TheQ: if you're somehow comparing Mitt and myself, here's an important difference. Mitt Romney didn't serve in the US military for 26 years. He didn't serve in law enforcement for 7 years. I did. Mitt doesn't actively hunt or shoot. I do.

So, when I speak of making smart changes to our gun culture from within, I'm speaking as a gun owner and enthusiast. Mitt really is neither.

Ultra · « **Reply #135 on:** October 17, 2015, 05:20:52 PM »

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/more-progressive-hypocrisy-as-if-we-needed-any/

Quote

The statist loves to blather on about ‘solutions’ to gun crimes in America. One such nonsensical solution is a federal gun registry. My question to any liberal elitist who spouts this idiocy is: If a federal gun registry, then why not a federal sexual disease registry? Sexual disease is responsible for thousands of deaths and illness yearly in America. Oh, but when it comes to their holy grail, free sex, the liberal becomes downright fanatical. How dare I support such a blatant act of invasion of privacy? … it is perfectly acceptable for the statist to violate the privacy of, oh no, a gun owner, but don’t you anarchists dare touch our friends, the sexual deviants.

The hypocrisy is stunning.

`````````````````````````````````

And, for a great read:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/10/ryan-mcmaken/gun-lies/

freediver · « **Reply #136 on:** October 17, 2015, 06:02:21 PM »

Mr ultra: excellent article; I enjoyed reading it. It's a superb example of the difficulty of comparing "apples to apples". When looking around the globe, it's easy to see that our country falls squarely within the middle.

I did notice one glaring omission. The article talks about murders, and there are countries whose murder rates are higher. However that's only part of the picture. If we are going to have a comprehensive discussion of gun deaths and gun violence, we need to talk about gun deaths and wounds, which includes accidental shootings, suicides, hunting accidents, etc. because those, too, are part of our gun culture. We need to talk about ALL of the shootings not just murders.

Let me give you an example of casual stupidity that exists. A friend and I do the rifle elk hunt every year. A couple of years ago we were coming back to our truck about 10 am after the dawn hunt. Standing next to our truck were a couple of fellas with high powered rifles on their shoulders and beers in hand. Judging from their eyes and speech, these weren't the first beers of the day. I have encountered this far too often in my life; a casual approach to guns that is truly moronic.

That's the piece we need to change. We need to change our culture from casual stupidity to one of sober responsibility and cool headed competence. We need to reassure our fellow citizens that when we carry firearms, ours are safe, reliable hands. We're doing a pretty crappy job of that so far.

As far as the rest of your posts, I don't dwell on labels or categories such as statist, liberal, elitist, conservative, etc. I consider them a complete bunch of BS and far too limiting. Every person is complex, every person has a broad range of ideas and opinions. To label them is to restrict them, to place them in a category they may not truly be in. I prefer to take them one at a time and judge them individually on their words and actions. Liberals, conservatives, and moderates all love their country and want it to prosper. They just all have different opinions on how to do it. The only right answer is the one that actually works.

autosurgeon · « **Reply #137 on:** October 17, 2015, 06:02:43 PM »

Having served in the military and worked in law enforcement is not a magic potion to reach a freedom loving Pro gun state.

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gryphon · « **Reply #138 on:** October 17, 2015, 06:30:24 PM »

I didn’t offer an opinion, I offered a fact. It’s a fact that overwhelmingly guns are used stop crime and protect innocent people/victims more than they are used to commit crime and kill people. About five times more often. For starters, you can read this.

More Guns, Less Crime

and

2015 Report From the Crime Prevention Research Center

and

National Self-Defense Survey

For fun let's look at another demographic, the rate of gun ownership and homicides in this hemisphere in the English speaking New World. Compare countries such as the US and Canada that have guns with countries such as, well, all the others that don’t.

Now there is more to crime than just murders. We can look at the US where states that don't infringe on one's ability to possess and carry firearms have less crime than states that do. And we can look at countries such as England and Australia where crime went up when firearms ownership went down after confiscation.

You want to stop crime and murders? Change the culture. Don’t go after innocent gun-owners. As I've said, I'm willing to make changes, such as keeping violent offenders in prison so they don't become repeat offenders. Only a small part of society continues to commit violent crime.

gryphon · « **Reply #139 on:** October 17, 2015, 06:42:28 PM »

I would add:

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson, proposal to the Virginia Constitution.

That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or prevent the PEOPLE of the United States, who are peaceable from keeping their OWN arms.

Samuel Adams

and

The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms, in lawful defense of himself or the State, is absolute. He does not derive it from the state government. It is one of the “High Powers” delegated directly to the citizen, and is excepted out of the general powers of government. A law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it because it is above the law, and independent of lawmaking”

Cockrum v State, 24Tex394

I would argue that your proposals would in fact infringe on and impair the people's right to bear arms for self defense.

News:

Author Topic: A discussion about gun ownership (Read 108119 times)