A discussion about gun ownership

[freediver]

Mr ultra: Since you consider democracy mob rule, what form of government do you espouse? The last time I checked democracy, while flawed, still beat the other forms of government hands down. We've tried feudalism, we've tried various forms of fascism or dictatorships, and theocracy certainly isn't working AGAIN. Is there a type of government that I'm missing?

[freediver]

Mr part deux: I confess I don't understand the fire extinguisher analogy.

One of the problems we are trying to combat is gun trafficking, the movement of guns from good hands to bad ones, especially en masse for money. The Justice department notes that over 220,000 firearms are lost or stolen each year. Many of these do end up in the wrong criminal hands. While most of the gun trafficking is done by corrupt FFLs, there is a smaller percentage done by corrupt gun owners. Like cars, boats, ATVs, motorcycles, planes, precious art, if we can track where specific guns are going, we can slowly shut down the individuals and the conduits involved in trafficking. As I've said before, criminals aren't getting their guns from liberal gun haters; they don't own guns. The thugs that people rail about are getting their guns from us, the gun owners. We bear the responsibility of trying to put a stop to it. For instance, the narcos in Mexico get 75-95% of their guns from the US. As gun enthusiasts we share the responsibility of trying to shut that down.

A side effect of tracking gun registrations is personal responsibility. If I know a particular weapon is attached to my name, I will attend properly to its care and storage.

[freediver]

My thamm: I can't find the exact number of homicides that were committed with stolen firearms. If I do, I'll post it.
And remember, it's not just homicides we're trying to address. Crimes such as rape, theft, extortion, etc are also committed with firearms.

[Ultra]

Last time you checked?  Let me guess, that would be in the middle of your government schooling years...


Anarcho-capitalism.  Voluntaryism. Self-government. Hell, even the republic we are supposed to be living under until Abe Lincoln destroyed it. These are some I'd be more comfortable with. Rather than the oligopoly of corporate fascism we currently live under. 

[part deux]

Mr part deux: I confess I don't understand the fire extinguisher analogy.

One of the problems we are trying to combat is gun trafficking, the movement of guns from good hands to bad ones, especially en masse for money. The Justice department notes that over 220,000 firearms are lost or stolen each year. Many of these do end up in the wrong criminal hands. While most of the gun trafficking is done by corrupt FFLs, there is a smaller percentage done by corrupt gun owners. Like cars, boats, ATVs, motorcycles, planes, precious art, if we can track where specific guns are going, we can slowly shut down the individuals and the conduits involved in trafficking. As I've said before, criminals aren't getting their guns from liberal gun haters; they don't own guns. The thugs that people rail about are getting their guns from us, the gun owners. We bear the responsibility of trying to put a stop to it. For instance, the narcos in Mexico get 75-95% of their guns from the US. As gun enthusiasts we share the responsibility of trying to shut that down.

A side effect of tracking gun registrations is personal responsibility. If I know a particular weapon is attached to my name, I will attend properly to its care and storage.

I'm at a complete loss for words.

[freediver]

Mr ultra: all I can say is WOW. You and I must live in different countries.

[freediver]

Me part deux: I don't believe that for a minute. I'm sure something will come to you.

[TheQ]

I think freediver would be better suited with "Moms and Dads Demand Action" than here.

[Ultra]

In order for one to see what is actually going on in this country, the one most of us share, one first must be looking...

[freediver]

Mr Ultra: Your statement assumes that you somehow have managed to "see" what is going on, and the rest of us are blind to reality. Which is ridiculous. Many of us see the same things you do, the same news, the same trends, yet draw different conclusions. We just view events through a different set of filters. It is the height of arrogance to think that you have all the answers, that your's is the only "way", that you have succeeded where the rest of us have failed. My worldview is just as reality and fact-based as yours. So, what we need to do is work together, to consider diverse viewpoints, and come up with solutions that work for all our citizens. Not just the ones who hold your worldview.

There is no "right" answer here, no perfect form of governance. This is a contract between the people and the form of government they choose to have. If the majority of people choose a style of government that you find unappealing, that's not mob rule. That's democracy in action. While flawed like every other human invention, so far it's the best form of government we've come up with.   

[freediver]

Mr theQ: Thank you for the suggestion. I'll pass.

[Ultra]

The largest government in the history of the world, that refuses to follow its own charter, and has done so for over 155 years.  You think it's "the best we've come up with."  I think you're a pawn in its propaganda. Our government isn't even the form we came up with in our founding document but you're too indoctrinated to notice the difference between a chartered republic turned social democracy turned fascist oligopoly.


"Shall not be infringed." A right that our governments charter clearly forbids our government from interfering with.  It's plain language. A third grader can understand it. You can't though.  Then you deign to lecture us here, who can understand it, with ways you'd like to infringe on that right.  My unalienable, God given right.  Try and limit my god given rights and you'll ultimately be on the wrong end of the barrel.

http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/six-about-2nd.htm

Read the link and learn something or don't and continue to parade your disinformation and misunderstanding here.  If you don't read it, for comprehensions sake, I can assure you the troll label will stick to you here.

Choice is yours.

Molon Labe

[part deux]

Read the link and learn something or don't and continue to parade your disinformation and misunderstanding here.  If you don't read it, for comprehensions sake, I can assure you the troll label will stick to you here.

Choice is yours.

Molon Labe

"shall not be infringed"

[Ultra]

"shall not be infringed"

Exactly.

[TheQ]

Mr theQ: Thank you for the suggestion. I'll pass.

Why pass? You seemingly share their views in the need for registration and more background checks (AKA gun control).

I think you'd be more successful in your pitch there. I don't think you'll find anyone here who wants to join your crusade to advance more gun control. As the old saying goes: you're pissing against the wind -- at least on this forum.

[Ultra]

Why pass? You seemingly share their views in the need for registration and more background checks (AKA gun control).

I think you'd be more successful in your pitch there. I don't think you'll find anyone here who wants to join your crusade to advance more gun control. As the old saying goes: you're pissing against the wind -- at least on this forum.

Exactly!!!

[TucTom]

Why pass? You seemingly share their views in the need for registration and more background checks (AKA gun control).

I think you'd be more successful in your pitch there. I don't think you'll find anyone here who wants to join your crusade to advance more gun control. As the old saying goes: you're pissing against the wind -- at least on this forum.

I also fully agree with Q's post.

[linux203]

You seemingly share their views in the need for registration and more background checks (AKA gun control).

I support the repeal of the Hughes amendment that prohibited the NFA registration of machine guns.    Did I just find common ground on registration?

[freediver]

Ladies and gentlemen: if we're going to quote the 2nd amendment, let's quote all of it.

A WELL REGULATED militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Looks to me like the founding fathers led with well-regulated.

[freediver]

Mr ultra: I read the link and again you and I differ sharply on our world views. But granting for the moment the "not be infringed" phrase, please explain the following:

How does requiring potential gun owners to attend firearms safety and competency training "infringe" upon your rights? We require the same thing of hunters and CPL licensees and that seems to work fine.

How does tracking gun registration numbers to combat crime infringe upon your rights?

So don't try to paint me as indoctrinated, misinformed, stupid, or any other epithet you conjure up. I will match my intelligence, education, experience, weapons training, military service, and patriotism against yours any day of the week. I see a problem with OUR gun culture and I'm offering a few solutions to make our communities safer while respecting the rights of gun owners. I see change from within our community as being better than have change forced upon us from without. If you don't like my solutions, that's fine. You may think you're upholding the constitution. I see someone who is so intolerant and close-minded that they cannot even consider a different way of thinking, let alone adapt to a changing world. You, like some other gun owners, have decided that it's your way or no way. You have decided that you alone have unlocked the secrets of the universe. If you had the chance, you would force your worldview on everyone else, making them live as you want. That kind of mental arrogance is just another kind of tyranny.