Author Topic: How do we address a problem like this?  (Read 64472 times)

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Offline bigt8261

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2015, 04:53:51 PM »
Actually thousands, or tens of thousands.  If you include incidents where no shots are fired, the figure is about 3.1 million according to the DoJ (wide margin of error ranging from 1.4 on the low end to 4.something on the high end).  The lowest estimates I have seen are 760,000 per year.

Great point.

Ugh, sorry sir, we can't allow you to kick your assailant. Our records show you only have an orange belt.

Offline part deux

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2015, 06:39:24 PM »
If you want to run a marathon, ride the Tour de France, walk the Appalachian Trail, be a chess master, cook like a blue-ribbon chef, or speak Portuguese, you don't just "do it". You'll fail. You get instruction, you practice hard, and you become aware of your own limitations. In the case of firearms, we are dealing with potentially taking a life. We need to get it right the first time.
More awesome straw man arguments.

Have you ever read the bill of rights?

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is clear written language.

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2015, 07:14:46 PM »
Mr part deux: obviously you and I draw different meanings from the phrase "shall not be infringed".

Offline thamm

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2015, 07:45:17 PM »
act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on.

Offline autosurgeon

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2015, 09:42:07 PM »
Fudds who have a small vocabulary usually have trouble with phrases like shall not be infringed.

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Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2015, 10:23:15 PM »
Mr autosurgeon: And morons who don't understand vocabulary can't get the subtleties of the English language.

My point is that we have differing opinions. You can be open-minded and accept that other people may not see things exactly as you do and accept that. Or you can be close-minded and wallow in ignorance.

Your call.

Offline TucTom

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2015, 02:08:32 AM »
Wtf freediver I thought you left again.

How about you following your own advice "You can be open-minded and accept that other people may not see things exactly as you do and accept that."

Offline bigt8261

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2015, 08:09:03 AM »
And morons who don't understand vocabulary can't get the subtleties of the English language.

Yeah, that's what we've been trying to tell you. http://www.truthrevolt.org/videos/bill-whittle-your-second-amendment

Offline gryphon

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2015, 10:15:28 AM »

Offline part deux

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2015, 12:31:54 PM »
Mr autosurgeon: And morons who don't understand vocabulary can't get the subtleties of the English language.

My point is that we have differing opinions. You can be open-minded and accept that other people may not see things exactly as you do and accept that. Or you can be close-minded and wallow in ignorance.

Your call.

Nice personal attack... Mods???

Shall not be infringed is clear as it could possibly be.  You might try reading the federalist papers.  Here's a summary by JPFO

SECOND: The language of the Second Amendment prohibits the federal government from “infringing” on this right of the people. There is nothing ambiguous about “shall not be infringed.” (See Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, 2d ed.1983, p. 941.) The language of the Second Amendment is about as clear as the First Amendment’s prohibiting Congress from infringing the right to freedom of speech, press, and religious expression. There is no logical reason to read the Second Amendment as a weak statement, while treating the First Amendment as a strong protector of rights.
A. The Second Amendment protects a fundamental right and should be read broadly because it implements the right of self-defense. Self-defense is the ultimate right of all individuals to preserve life. The rights to a free press, free speech, assembly, and religion are extremely important — but none of them matters very much if you can’t defend your own life against aggression. None of them matters very much when an evil government is fully armed and its citizens are disarmed.
B. Article I, Section 8, clauses 15 and 16 of the U.S. Constitution refer to Congress’s powers concerning the state militias. Clause 15 empowers Congress to “call forth” the state militias into national service for specific purposes. Clause 16 empowers Congress to organize, arm and discipline the state militias, and to govern the militias while they are in national service. The Second Amendment confines Congress’s power by guaranteeing that the Congress cannot “govern” the militias right out of existence and thereby disarm “the people.”

http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/six-about-2nd.htm

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2015, 08:34:43 PM »
Mr Tuctom: I try to be open minded and listen to differing opinions. As I told Mr part deux, he and I have differing opinions on "shall not be infringed". We agree to disagree. He's not changing his mind, I'm not changing mine. This forum is a place to display and comment on those differing opinions.

Mr bigT8261: I understand Bill Whittle's article completely; there's no lack of understanding vocabulary on my part. I see and read things differently and have stated so on this forum many times.

Mr part deux: You're right, it is a personal attack. I was responding directly to his comment about Fudds, as well as numerous other personal attacks I've received on this forum (Mr Tuctom, mr Utra, Mr theQ, Mr gryphon, etc, etc). Ladies and gentlemen, should we stick to discussing the issues or are you going to continue attacking anyone who disagrees with you? I guess that would count as shooting the messenger.

The JPFO is a pro-gun organization and therefore biased in writing opinions on what the Constitution really means. If you want to have a balanced, even nuanced discussion, try offering up some differing opinions so that readers can hear both sides of the argument and draw their own conclusions. This idea in MOC that everyone has to believe the same thing or be damned is just another form of tyranny.

Offline gryphon

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2015, 08:58:14 PM »
he and I have differing opinions on "shall not be infringed".

If you start placing all sorts of rules, regulations, and restrictions on bearing arms, then you are infringing on one's right to bear arms and are converting it into a privilege.

Offline part deux

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2015, 09:30:33 PM »
Read the Federalist papers, read the preamble and then tell me that JPFO is biased analysis.

Offline TheQ

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2015, 09:55:48 PM »
For the record I never said any names in any threads regarding FUDDs. If the label fits, wear it.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline CharleyVCU1988

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #94 on: November 17, 2015, 11:18:18 PM »
The thing is, freediver, even with all of the safety training you propose, none of it is going to deter someone hellbent on causing mayhem, as recent events in Paris have shown.

You are all for universal background checks which sounds nice in theory, but would require an (unconstitutional) registry in order to work.

And then when you do get universal background checks, what is stopping you or The State from expanding the dragnet so ridiculously large that it will eventually ensnare every US Citizen?

Offline gryphon

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2015, 01:13:41 AM »
We have universal background checks for pistols in Michigan.  Fortunately that prevents gun crime and makes us one of the lowest gun crime states in America.  Yay Detroit and Flint.

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2015, 08:06:17 AM »
Gentlemen, as I've said many times, here and in other threads, the gun issues in our country will not be solved by simple, one-step approaches. The issue is complex and requires a multi-faceted solution. The change will not happen over night. Training requirements, licensing, proper locked storage, mandatory background checks, etc; all need to be part of the solution. My personal opinion is that none of these "infringes" on our right to bear arms. They safeguard that right, because in taking these and other measures, we gradually ensure that guns are in the proper hands. Remember, our top priorities are safety (personal and public) and keeping guns out of the hands of crazies and criminals.

And we, the gun enthusiasts, should be taking the lead on this. This is OUR problem. You can exist in denial and say that you personally aren't part of the problem. But you are. We all are. The current system is broken. Guns flow from the hands of gun owners and corrupt FFLs into the wrong hands by the hundreds of thousands every year. We are causing this, not the liberal gun haters out there who don't actually own guns. We are the ones who should be writing the laws that cure the gun problems in our country. If we don't, public opinion will continue to swell against us, and someone else will write laws that we don't like and that don't work. As someone pointed out, just look at Chicago, Detroit, and Flint.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2015, 08:18:58 AM »
No not "we the gun enthusiasts", YOU the gun controlist. Don't place your blame or shame on me, you can keep it and wallow in it alone.

MOC is leading the way. There is no question we are the very tip of the spear when it comes to advancing gun rights in Michigan. If you have a different agenda, then I again suggest you would be better off somewhere else. MDA likes to list the same ideas you did. Start with them, if you haven't already. You can be one of their 'I'm a gun proud gun owner but...' people.

Oh, and if you haven't noticed, public opinion is swelling in favor of pro-gun. Step outside of your gun control bubble and you will see.

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2015, 08:22:41 AM »
And mr TheQ: For the record, you've said plenty of other things that constituted personal attacks. So, if we want to have an adult discussion, we need to drop the personal attacks.

If you disagree with someone, explain why you do. Back it up with FACTS, if you can. Engaging in personal attacks is childish and adds nothing to the conversation. It's the equivalent of Dan Akroyd on SNL saying "Jane, you ignorant slut".

And most of all, agree to disagree. We are all adults here (supposedly). We should act like it and hear each other out, respectfully. A hallmark of our democracy is free speech and the respect for individual opinions. We should keep it that way.

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2015, 08:27:26 AM »
Mr bigt8261: again, we see things differently. I'm comfortable in my world view, as you are with yours. I am not wallowing in guilt or shame. I see problems that need fixing. I see some things we can do to fix them. I am a citizen who served this country and cares deeply about its safety. I am voicing those solutions here, on a forum about guns, because this is where we need to talk about such things.