How do we address a problem like this?

[autosurgeon]

Theft which is how most criminals get guns directly or indirectly is not my problem. It is mine don't steal it. Whatever it is.


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[freediver]

Mr autosurgeon: If you are a citizen of this society, it is your problem. Just as it is mine. If you are a gun owner, as am I, you are part of a group of people who are responsible for these problems. As I've pointed out in past threads, FBI stats indicate that over 223,000 firearms are lost or stolen EVERY YEAR. Many of those end up in the hands of criminals or crazies. Those guns aren't coming from gun haters. They're coming from us, the gun owners. So, either we police ourselves and go after some of these problems, or someone else will do it for us. We might not like their solution.

[bigt8261]

FBI stats indicate that over 223,000 firearms are lost or stolen EVERY YEAR. Many of those end up in the hands of criminals or crazies. Those guns aren't coming from gun haters. They're coming from us, the gun owners. So, either we police ourselves and go after some of these problems, or someone else will do it for us. We might not like their solution.

I'll leave you to your proof. Until then, let's put a few things into perspective. http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/LostAndStolenGuns.pdf

[autosurgeon]

Nope not my responsibility when another person decides to take what is mine unlawfully. If you think it is you are a moron who couldn't find your at out of a bucket with a map. Hint look up....

Stealing is unlawful.. But yet people still do it. Murder is unlawful yet people still murder. A felon in possession of a firearm is unlawful yet they still are found with guns.. Criminals don't obey laws so more laws will do nothing useful. Good people don't need laws to behave bad people don't pay a attention to laws put in place already.

This post is a waste of time as everyone in this thread knows this to be true except one uneducated individual who wears rose colored glasses and wants to take responsibility for the bad behavior of others.


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[freediver]

Mr bigT: your article proved my point. If over 223,000 guns are lost or stolen every year, yet few of them come from FFLs, then guess what? That means they're being lost by or stolen from us, THE GUN OWNERS. We need to bear the responsibility for that.

[Ultra]

Mr bigT: your article proved my point. If over 223,000 guns are lost or stolen every year, yet few of them come from FFLs, then guess what? That means they're being lost by or stolen from us, THE GUN OWNERS. We need to bear the responsibility for that.

We need to bear responsibility for the actions of others.

That's right, a criminal takes action against the property of another and it is YOUR responsibility as an individual, due solely to certain types of property you own.  You, as a property owner and citizen exercising your rights must bear the weight of the the theft and lawlessness of others.  It is your responsibility to act.

Communist and unable to admit it.

[bigt8261]

Mr bigT: your article proved my point. If over 223,000 guns are lost or stolen every year, yet few of them come from FFLs, then guess what? That means they're being lost by or stolen from us, THE GUN OWNERS. We need to bear the responsibility for that.

I said I would leave you to your proof, yet you have offered none. You keep repeating a number but have yet to cite anything behind it.

If a gun is stolen from an FFL, that likely means it is NOT owned by one of "us" gun owners. Combating stolen TVs from Best Buy is very different than combating stolen TVs from one's home.

Next, let's just stipulate your problem is as you say it is. What is your solution? Thus far I do not see that you have offered one. My solution is that I'm out educating current and new gun owners about safe storage of firearms. In every one of my classes we talk about keeping firearms out of the hands of unauthorized individuals. There are many solutions in the marketplace today and that market for these solutions is booming as we buy more and better products. However, you seem to suggest that this is not enough, so what do you suggest we do differently?

[freediver]

Mr ultra: wow, I've never been called a communist before. Thanks for a good laugh. Given the fact that I spent 26 years in the USAF, much of it at the height of the Cold War, I seriously doubt I'm a communist. What I am is a concerned citizen who sees some problems with gun violence in our society and wants to work for effective solutions.

You might want to go back and re-read Karl Marx' works. You don't seem to have a clear understanding of what communism truly is. Since it was a completely failed system under both the Soviets and the PRC, I don't see it catching fire in these United States.

And yes, your gun (deadly weapon), your responsibility. Step up and be a man.

[Ultra]

What you are is a communist trying to take rights from individuals for the supposed good of a collective and military service has nothing to do with it.

[bigt8261]

What you are is a communist trying to take rights from individuals for the supposed good of a collective and military service has nothing to do with it.

Let's please stick to the firearm related topic at hand.

[freediver]

Mr ultra: sorry, that's not what a communist is. Looks like you need to hit the books some more.

[freediver]

Mr bigT: let me see if I understand you. What you're suggesting is that we stay on topic and discuss the issues rather than go off topic and devolve into personal discussions and attacks. Am I right? Great idea! You go first.

[bigt8261]

I devoted an entirely new thread for just such an opportunity for you. In that thread, just as in every other one, you have yet to respond in any meaningful way to any challenge to the junk you are putting forward. If your ideas are so strong, then support them. Win us over with the facts. Do more than just spout your stream of consciousness gun control thoughts. Back it up, defend it, support it, or admit when you can't.

You can play a victim and deflect, or you can engage in the conversation you supposedly came here to have. Will you deflect again?

[Ultra]

The "problem like this" is the topic, is it not?

Yet "the problem" wasn't defined by the OP.

What, exactly, is the topic of this thread?  Let the OP declare it in plain language and I'll be glad to stick to it. I believe I stated as much in my first post in this thread:

I don't see any problem.  I'm having a hard time with that characterization.

Criminal got caught.  Laws worked.  Claiming there is a problem where there isn't.....

Crying wolf!

Isn't that nursery rhyme intend to teach young children the consequences of believing in those who tell stories with ulterior motives?

It sure is, Aesop.

Nothing to see here.  Move along.

As I see it, "the problem," in plain language, are people who wish to take away the rights of others. Taking rights from individuals for the benefit of a collective is what communism is and, frankly, that is the problem I see in this thread and the true topic at hand.

[gryphon]

I spent 26 years in the USAF

Nidal Hasan spent 21 years in the US Army.  What's your point?

[mosnar87]

Nidal Hasan spent 21 years in the US Army.  What's your point?

Clearly, he's trying to tell us that he received a "patriotism" merit badge.

[freediver]

Mr gryphon: you took the words out of context. My point was that I could hardly be a communist. What's your point? You're another one who's good at slinging BS yet rarely backs up anything you say.

[m.marino]

Ultra,

I aksed the same and got a response of sort which I responded to and am continuing my response to freedivers. where it goes from here will be interesting.

Mr m.marino: I am happy to respond to well-reasoned, reality based discussions about gun policy. That's why I joined; to educate myself and to try and find a way forward in dealing with gun issues in the U.S.

I would clarify a couple of things in relation to what you said. First, I'm not suggesting that gun owners be experts just to own a firearm. I'm suggesting that all gun owners be required to take some basic safety and operations training before they operate a firearm, something akin to drivers' training. I have mentioned tactical shooting courses in the course of discussion because, if you want to be that good guy with a gun, you're going to need a better skill set than just shooting targets. Just like an Indy driver needs to know more than the average driver.

Okay, I see you opinion and a good bit of the reasoning for it. Might I point out as has been pointed out that when dealing with criminals you are more likely to get shot by an officer shooting at the criminal than by a citizen dealing with a criminal. There are many different points for this and no one exact reason. This is even though officers are supposed to go through much more extensive training in the use of a firearm. I say supposed as I know of more than one case where range time was pencil whipped and where funding cuts meant officers where required to pay for their training rounds which cut into the amount of training time that was done. Lastly you appear to be taking the position that ownership of arms (not just firearms) is a privilege and not a natural right. Now one point I would find acceptable is making arms affordable to the public and requiring practice as a public group (As was done both in the colonies and early States). 

Tracking firearms gives law enforcement a tool they have often asked for to track the physical flow of guns into the wrong hands. If they can find the conduit, they can shut it down and penalize the guilty parties. That includes guilty or negligent law enforcement officers. It won't happen overnight but we need to take the long view on a lot of these things.

Tracking how? Serial numbers? Not really effective when weapons can be created from whole material these days besides the hardware store nightmare specials. Most attempts to track hand guns run into those who are willing to make them not traceable. The other issue is you end up with a mountain of data that can create false positives and allow those who learn now to game the system to continue doing what they do. Criminals by their very choice do not respect the rule of law nor the value of society.

Regulation for regulations' sake is a bad idea. What I am proposing are ideas that should work. but I don't have all the answers. In these forums my main thrust has been to suggest that we, as gun owners, are best equipped to solve these issues. Rather than say no and hide behind the 2nd amendment verbiage, I think we need to be pro-active and work for solutions that actually make a difference. But that means we need to be open-minded, we need to consider the long view, and we need to be willing to compromise.

[/quote]

The problem is compromise has happened and the problem has not improved but gotten markedly worse with each infringement of the second amendment that has happened. Better yet let's be pro-active and educational. helping to remove social fear and encourage informed experienced debate. Let us bring back fire arm training into schools starting at middle school and repeat it at high school. with that let us also restore the level of civics to the class room in elementary. also get back to teaching the basic value each person has and really uphold that. 

I don't like gun violence but I also know history teaches very well not to trust government and the constitution was created to bind government NOT to give it powers. I would much rather see an educated experienced public that understand the responsibility of citizenship and duty to safe guard them. In doing so each person who chooses to be positive and develop what they are able to do will have that opportunity. Those who choose to commit crime and attacks others might find that road not profitable.

Michael

Reason for edit to make it more readable as I had an issue when I went back and read again.

[freediver]

Mr mosnar87: It has nothing to do with patriotism. I was responding to Mr ultra's incredibly stupid comment about being a communist. In other threads I have referenced my service only as background material; that I have a fair amount of weapons TRAINING under my belt. Which is exactly one of the points I've been making in these forums. That to cut out the irresponsible and the idiots, to enable gun owners to be that good guy with a gun, we should step up the training requirements.

Maybe you like merit badges. I could care less.

[gryphon]

Mr gryphon: you took the words out of context. My point was that I could hardly be a communist.

Why not?  Alger Hiss was a Communist and he worked in the federal government, both in the Department of Justice and the State Department, for years.

You're another one who's good at slinging BS yet rarely backs up anything you say.

Sounds like you need to reread my posts.