Author Topic: How do we address a problem like this?  (Read 64451 times)

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Offline Ultra

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #140 on: November 29, 2015, 04:07:17 PM »
Communists can serve in the military.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  Communism is an ideology and one of its tenets is the subjugation of the rights of the individual to the rights of the commune, which is exactly what you continue to proscribe here.
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Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #141 on: November 29, 2015, 04:15:03 PM »
mr m.marino: You make an excellent point about LEO training, pencil whipping training requirements, and the fact that law enforcement and the military shoot the wrong people all the time. You're making the same points I've been making on these forums. If people who routinely train in tactical shooting scenarios frequently get it wrong, what makes you think that as an untrained citizen you'll get it right? There is only one way you'll be effective as that "good guy with a gun"; training and practice. Lots of practice. If you don't do that, then you're just hoping that you'll come to the rescue. Hope is a lousy strategy. I know training like that is expensive. I was lucky and did almost all of mine on the government nickel. I would like to see our government and/or gun enthusiast groups like the NRA step up and create fairly low cost training programs. Talk to your reps about that one!

I concur that criminals do not respect the laws of society. They'll find workarounds, and this problem will not be answered overnight. What we need to do is choke off the supply of guns to criminals and crazies. Tracking serial numbers so as to track conduits from good hands to bad hands is something law enforcement officials have been asking for for years. We have to start somewhere. Progress will be incremental. But if we start choking off the flow of guns to the wrong hands, illegal gun prices go up. Supply and demand. You'll price the street thugs right out of the gun market. then we'll have a situation like Europe or Japan where criminals use guns only for black on black ops. It's too expensive to get a gun to mug the average citizen. There's not enough payoff. But we can't just say to hell with it and "hope" we don't run into a criminal or a crazy. That starts by making gun owners more aware of their very sober responsibility, that what they own is a deadly weapon with the potential to do an incredible amount of harm, and they should treat that firearm and its ownership with the respect it deserves. We have an epidemic of gun owners who don't do that. The other day I was reading a story of a guy who was using his laser sight to tease the cat. He set the gun down, left the room, and one of his kids shot another kid. That's a fairly normal occurrence in our nation, the kind of base level stupidity that we need to address.

I firmly believe in the right to bear arms. With that right comes a lot of responsibility, responsibility I don't see being exercised very often. Living in a free society with our fellow citizens requires compromise. But I'm not talking about compromising just to do something. It is very evident to me that our current gun regulatory system is broken. Most people agree. So how do we address the issues of gun safety, criminals, crazies, and the merely stupid? We the gun owners are the experts and have the most skin in the game. If we put our heads together, we can come up with smart solutions that balance 2A rights with the need for public safety.

But living in denial and saying no to everything won't work, long-term. Despite what some people believe, public opinion is not turning in our favor. There are large, increasingly well-funded groups out there who would love to ban guns. If we are not pro-active, if we continue to say no to every change, we cede the decision making to people who are anti-gun and we won't like the results. 

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #142 on: November 29, 2015, 04:22:02 PM »
Mr ultra: when I was in the military avowed communists were not allowed to serve, and they certainly weren't allowed to get high level security clearances or carry nukes. Maybe that's changed. But the idea of me being a communist is still laughable.

As far as the definition of communism is concerned, I still don't think you have it right. Communism is a form of self-rule where everyone in the society bands together, contributes the fruits of their labors, and takes only what they need from the communal pot. Communism was probably better defined by a lot of the "hippie" communes that sprung up in the 60s and 70s, where everyone worked and contributed to the common good. It's a hard thing to pull off in such an individualistic society like ours. It certainly wasn't anything that existed in the USSR or PRC.

Every society has rules, compromises, give and take. If you want to live completely free of any restrictions or compromises, you may have to break out the checkbook and buy your own island. Otherwise, to live in any society we subject ourselves to the rules of that society. or leave it.

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #143 on: November 29, 2015, 04:26:31 PM »
Mr gryphon: I can't speak for Alger Hiss. Plus, he was a secret communist and denied any connection with communism. This was later discovered when he was tried for espionage. I was in the military from 74-2000. Trust me, you weren't allowed to be a communist.

As far as your posts, yes, I've read them. You've been right in there slinging dirt and avoiding answering questions with the rest of them. I'll agree to stick to the issues if you do as well.

Offline gryphon

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #144 on: November 29, 2015, 04:27:07 PM »
Quote from: freediver
Firearms deaths run about 33K a year. Of those, homicides make up roughly 1/3, accidental shootings 1/3, suicides 1/3.

False. Table 18 from the CDC statistics you cited previously.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Total firearm deaths 33,636
Suicides 21,175 = 62.95%
Homicides 11,208 = 33.32%
Unintentional 505 = 1.50%
Legal Intervention/War 467 = 1.39%
Undetermined 281 = 0.84%

Well, 1.5% is close to 33%.  LOL.

Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #145 on: November 29, 2015, 04:43:14 PM »
Mr gryphon: See, if you actually read my posts you'd see that I already admitted that was an error on my part. The total numbers were good but the breakdown was incorrect.

Offline m.marino

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #146 on: November 29, 2015, 05:11:57 PM »
Freediver, I went back and reset the quote section to make it a bit more readable. I did give a solution option at the end and would not mind your opinion on that idea. Japan it may have driven the price of guns up to only high level crime (will have to talk to a few friends who live there in both city and country to get their input). In Europe gun crime exists and at a much higher rate then what is publicly reported. Very often a gun crime will be reported as an altered airsoft weapon or historical replica modified to function with normal rounds. Often those reports are not truthful.

As to opinion turning against gun ownership? Only in the dreams of the owners and backers of the Huffington Post and a very small elite on both the east and west coasts of the US. Numbers for gun ownership and concealed carry permits are rising nationally and interestingly enough women are the biggest sector that is growing. The data is there and confirmed by many semi neutral sources. One point I want to make so as not to confuse or have folks miss understand, I believe that the right to bear arms in self defense or to deter those who would do violence to be natural right. In that it is outside of government or social contract. Now with all right comes the responsibility to use it wisely. That does not mean to curtail ones right for someone else's fear or social agenda. I mean no offense in that statement just stating from what place I hold these views.
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Offline freediver

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #147 on: November 29, 2015, 06:23:41 PM »
Mr m.marino: I especially like your idea to teach firearms handling, safety, and marksmanship in our schools. That's akin to the Swiss or Israeli notion that EVERYONE is a citizen soldier, man or woman, young or old, liberal or conservative. It also sends a message to potential tyrants that the civilian populace is well trained. It provides that firearm desensitizing that we talk about. That's a program the NRA and the gun manufacturers should be pushing.

It's like alcohol or sex; you take the mystery out of it, and people make better decisions.

Offline bigt8261

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #148 on: November 29, 2015, 06:26:30 PM »
mr m.marino: You make an excellent point about LEO training, pencil whipping training requirements, and the fact that law enforcement and the military shoot the wrong people all the time. You're making the same points I've been making on these forums. If people who routinely train in tactical shooting scenarios frequently get it wrong, what makes you think that as an untrained citizen you'll get it right? There is only one way you'll be effective as that "good guy with a gun"; training and practice. Lots of practice. If you don't do that, then you're just hoping that you'll come to the rescue. Hope is a lousy strategy. I know training like that is expensive. I was lucky and did almost all of mine on the government nickel. I would like to see our government and/or gun enthusiast groups like the NRA step up and create fairly low cost training programs. Talk to your reps about that one!

As has already been explained and cited to you, armed citizens shoot far fewer innocent bystanders than supposedly more trained officers. The most likely reason is that citizens arm themselves to protect themselves, where officers have other reasons. There are also a number of papers that have questions the effect of training for permits, specifically stating there is no measurable benefit.

Did you know that the NRA runs a deficit on their training material that they print? That's right, they lose money to facilitate their training program. This organization, that you have become a member of, has also offered numerous free seminars on the best practices and legalities of OC. Hey, but that doesn't stop you from opening your mouth about something you don't understand.

Tracking serial numbers so as to track conduits from good hands to bad hands is something law enforcement officials have been asking for for years. We have to start somewhere. Progress will be incremental. But if we start choking off the flow of guns to the wrong hands, illegal gun prices go up. Supply and demand. You'll price the street thugs right out of the gun market.

Essentially A does not lead to B like you assume. As proof, I again offer Michigan as an example. After decades and decades of registering pistols, our database has yet to be used to solve a single crime. That's right, not one. I also again offer Canada's registry that they just abolished for the same reason as another example.

Choking off supply to criminals would be a good thing, but registration will not get you there and I haven't even brought up the harm registration causes.

That starts by making gun owners more aware of their very sober responsibility, that what they own is a deadly weapon with the potential to do an incredible amount of harm, and they should treat that firearm and its ownership with the respect it deserves. We have an epidemic of gun owners who don't do that. The other day I was reading a story of a guy who was using his laser sight to tease the cat. He set the gun down, left the room, and one of his kids shot another kid. That's a fairly normal occurrence in our nation, the kind of base level stupidity that we need to address.

Such incidents are tragic for sure, but they must be put into perspective. Accidental firearm related deaths for children are at an all time low and only account for 1.4% of unintentional fatalities in children under 14. Essentially, firearm owners are pretty safe and getting safer.

Our friends over at MGO were given an award for their work with Project Childsafe this year and I have personally taught numerous classes where we've covered properly storing a firearm. What are you doing?

I firmly believe in the right to bear arms. With that right comes a lot of responsibility, responsibility I don't see being exercised very often. Living in a free society with our fellow citizens requires compromise. But I'm not talking about compromising just to do something. It is very evident to me that our current gun regulatory system is broken. Most people agree. So how do we address the issues of gun safety, criminals, crazies, and the merely stupid? We the gun owners are the experts and have the most skin in the game. If we put our heads together, we can come up with smart solutions that balance 2A rights with the need for public safety.

But living in denial and saying no to everything won't work, long-term. Despite what some people believe, public opinion is not turning in our favor. There are large, increasingly well-funded groups out there who would love to ban guns. If we are not pro-active, if we continue to say no to every change, we cede the decision making to people who are anti-gun and we won't like the results.

An armed society and safety are not antithetical to each other. That is your most fundamental error.

What can we do? As I have previously told you, start by enforcing our current laws. The NRA has been screaming this for years. Gun owners agree that criminals who would use a firearm for harm should be taken off the streets, but our government by-and-large won't enforce our existing laws leaving these people free to do more harm.

Will you actually read my responses this time or ignore them again?

Offline part deux

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #149 on: November 29, 2015, 07:22:16 PM »
approximately 35,000 people die in auto accidents.  It's been estimated as much as 50% have alcohol involved.

More people die from knife attacks than killed by rifles.

More children die from drowning than die in accidental firearm deaths.

Majority of firearm deaths are suicide.

Are you interested in reducing the number of people that die, or controlling guns?

Offline gryphon

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #150 on: November 29, 2015, 07:23:49 PM »
If you don't do that, then you're just hoping that you'll come to the rescue.

Come to the rescue of who, someone else who chooses not to carry a gun for self-defense?  We're not cops.  We, at least I, don't carry for that purpose.  In fact, the government specifically grants certain protections for law enforcement that we are not afforded for that very reason.

Quote
I would like to see our government and/or gun enthusiast groups like the NRA step up and create fairly low cost training programs. Talk to your reps about that one!

More government intrusion.  The private sector, like most things, covers that very well already.  You don't have to fly out to Thunder Ranch and have Clint Smith teach you.  Right here in Michigan we have a number of good, qualified private firearms instruction schools that teach basic and advanced home, tactical, and self-defense classes including MDFI and ATHG Tactical.  Classes run about $150 per day.  That's very reasonable considering you have multiple instructors and trained first aid responders on hand.  MDFI even uses a shoot house for one of their classes, and ATHG utilizes vehicles in their training.  Several schools also teach force-on-force and weapons retention, including MDFI and another school that I can't recall off the top of my head right now.
 
Quote
Tracking serial numbers so as to track conduits from good hands to bad hands is something law enforcement officials have been asking for for years.

Michigan has registration.  So do some other states.  How has that assisted in tracking conduits from good hands to bad hands?  How has that solved any crimes?

Quote
criminals do not respect the laws of society. They'll find workarounds...What we need to do is choke off the supply of guns to criminals and crazies...We have to start somewhere.

"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it." – William S. Burroughs

“We sometimes think our duty is to make everyone safe. It’s not to make a society that’s absolutely safe. It’s to preserve liberty.” — Sen. Jim Rice

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker.  It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” — Ronald Reagan




« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 07:39:35 PM by gryphon »

Offline TheQ

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #151 on: December 01, 2015, 09:51:06 PM »

Mr bigT: your article proved my point. If over 223,000 guns are lost or stolen every year, yet few of them come from FFLs, then guess what? That means they're being lost by or stolen from us, THE GUN OWNERS. We need to bear the responsibility for that.

Nope, my homeowners policy does (after my $500 deductible).
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Offline LD

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #152 on: December 02, 2015, 12:27:34 PM »
What is that old definition of insanity?

Doing the same thing over & over & expecting a different outcome?
Isn't that what calling for more regulation, training, registration, etc. of guns is doing?

Rather then just saying NO to any idea other then more restrictions & infringements why not go at this from a different angle altogether?

How about we honer the second amendment and rescind ALL gun laws.
You can't show how any single gun law has done anything to prevent unlawful gun usage.
UBC's, they don't work. Many states have background checks and the Fed. requires it on all gun purchases through FFL's and it hasn't stopped anything. Being a felon makes you ineligible to own a firearm but, what is a felony in one state is 100% legal in others. Writing a bad check is a felony, how does stopping  the writer from owning solve the problem?

We need to ignore the tool.

Then concentrate on what makes people shoot other people.

We all know it is against the law, but a very few of the population do it anyway.



Offline part deux

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #153 on: December 02, 2015, 02:33:52 PM »
Someday we'll actually get a Republican in the state capital :(

Offline Langenc

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Re: How do we address a problem like this?
« Reply #154 on: December 03, 2015, 07:18:59 PM »
I bet Mr Freediver thinks killing 3500 UNborn every day is just wonderful.