Three types of ammo

[gryphon]

There are three basic projectiles that can be fired from a handgun; the first being the conventional pointed bullet. When this strikes a body it will usually pass through. If it does not strike a vital organ it is rarely life threatening.

The second is the so called rubber bullet. These are often used for crowd control, since they can be very painful to the victim and I understand will cause a significant bruise. These are the ideal bullets for homeowner protection.

The last type of projectile is the hollow-nosed bullet. This is designed to spread when it enters the body to cause significant damage. It was declared illegal by the Geneva Convention. When the shooter loads this round into his weapon he is intending to kill his victim!

Even if our politicians are reticent to make this bullet illegal, if enough prosecutors used this as prima facia evidence of intent to kill, it would strongly deter the use of this terrible weapon.

http://www.vagazette.com/news/va-vg-edit-letters-penny-20151103-story.html

[TheQ]

I'm speechless. Maybe they don't realize the only way to stop many determined attackers is deadly force?

They didn't even mention fragmentation and incendiary rounds.

[gryphon]

I'm speechless.

I am, too, but that's because I am still laughing hard.

[gryphon]

Not only are rubber rounds illegal/restricted for non-LEOs in some states and cities, they won't cycle a semi-auto!  (And they won't stop an attacker).

Illegal/restricted in AK, HI, MA, NY, Washington DC;  California Cities: Los Angeles, Yolo City, San Francisco, Sacramento, Oakland and Beverly Hills. Illinois Cities: Chicago. FOID Required for all IL Cities. ; CT, NJ: Pistol Permit# Required.

[TheQ]

I know -- I know! Let's start by emptying cop guns of all real bullets -- spare mags too!

[CitizensHaveRights]

I know -- I know! Let's start by emptying cop guns of all real bullets -- spare mags too!

I was just thinking that the statist idiot was inadvertently claiming that Talon/HP ammo was proof of cops' homicidal intent.

[m.marino]

The author is an idiot that, I would laugh if not for the fact I find such passive aggressive arguments worthy of a discussion via finely forged and honed steel.

Michael

[freediver]

The ammo we used in the FFDO program would be the hollow-nosed bullet. The idea is that because of the close-in shooting scenarios we were training for, max carnage would save the cockpit  and thereby save the airplane. Yet pancake on anything structural if the bullets went astray (which they will). Even if it is outlawed by the Geneva Convention (which is kind of a catch-all phrase).

Something to consider when you OC or defend your "home": the perpetrator probably only wants your money or your "stuff". Are you prepared to kill said intruder over material goods? There isn't a right answer, but it's an important question to ask yourself BEFORE you pull out a gun.

[gryphon]

Even if it is outlawed by the Geneva Convention

Freediver never disappoints.  I knew we could count on you to continue to post nonsense here.  You repeat lies told by others because, I assume, you don't know any better, yet you feel qualified to speak.  Hollow point (nose) bullets are not outlawed by the Geneva Convention.  The correct organization is the Hague Convention (or Hague Peace Conferences).  Also, it is only binding on signatories, of which the USA is NOT one.  The specific 1868 language states:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

The USA in fact DOES use hollow-points in warfare.  Not only that, but there is a move on in the military to switch to HP for general use in warfare. 

Now forty years later in the Hague Convention IV of 1907 we did agree to a clause stating, "…it is especially forbidden to employ arms, projectiles, or material [sic] calculated to cause unnecessary suffering."

Define that.  Does 55 gr. 5.56 ammo that travels at 3100+ fps and tumbles upon impact and tears up your insides qualify?  Does a grenade that blows your arm or leg off qualify?  How about flame throwers?  We used those in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.  Surely those violate the Hague Convention IV.

Something to consider when you OC or defend your "home": the perpetrator probably only wants your money or your "stuff". Are you prepared to kill said intruder over material goods?

If an intruder enters your home while you are there then they are prepared to kill you to get what they want.  Or maybe you're a woman and the intruder just wants to rape you, not necessarily murder you.  I guess just let him rape you?

I just read a story about a homeowner who shot someone who was trying to break into her home.  The criminal dropped his gun when he got shot.   I also just read a story about an 88 year-old women who shot at a criminal who kicked her door in at 10:30 PM at night.  I'm sure in your world these woman should have just let the criminal do whatever he wanted.  How can you look yourself in the mirror each morning?

[TucTom]

He!! I want my money and my stuff, why should I "let" someone take it?

[Ultra]

Hell, gryphon, I was going to give Freediver a pass this time.

What are you?  A Marine?

;-)

[freediver]

Gentlemen, I was merely passing along info that the hollow-point is an effective ammo choice for close in work.

As far as the other comment, I am not suggesting that anyone just allow a perp to take your "stuff". I am merely posing the moral question: are you prepared to kill someone over "stuff"? Because that is what we are talking about here. It's an open question for people to ponder, nothing more.

[gryphon]

Gentlemen, I was merely passing along info that the hollow-point is an effective ammo choice for close in work.

No kidding.  We had no idea.

As far as the other comment, I am not suggesting that anyone just allow a perp to take your "stuff". I am merely posing the moral question: are you prepared to kill someone over "stuff"?

If someone is willing to break into your house when you are home, you can't assume they are peaceful and aren't prepared to attack you.  You seem quite naive.

[mosnar87]

Gentlemen, I was merely passing along info that the hollow-point is an effective ammo choice for close in work.

As far as the other comment, I am not suggesting that anyone just allow a perp to take your "stuff". I am merely posing the moral question: are you prepared to kill someone over "stuff"? Because that is what we are talking about here. It's an open question for people to ponder, nothing more.

In my opinion, my "stuff" represents slices of my life. X number of hours for the motorcycle, Y hours for the flat-screens and the self built PC, Z hours for the various firearms, and so forth.

So, based on that perspective, if someone is attempting to take my "stuff" then they are also trying to steal a previously spent portion of my life from me, not just possessions.

[Redwingsrule6971]

I'm not willing to bet my life that he's only going to take my "stuff".

Years ago I had my apartment broken into when my kids and I were there.

I've been robbed at gunpoint, with the gun literally touching my head the whole time, my life flashing in front of my eyes when he told us to lay down and close our eyes.

Yeah... I'm not going to trust someone who forces his way into my home to just take my stuff. 

These incidents are why I carry now.  I refuse to be a victim again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pond Scum]

I refuse to be a victim again.

Good for you!   And thanks for sharing!

[TheQ]

He!! I want my money and my stuff, why should I "let" someone take it?

You let the government people take it all the time, no?

To be fair - I do too. Who wants to have the house stolen, put in a cage, or be killed?

[linux203]

(It should be added that with 20,000 gun related suicides in this country every year, this could significantly reduce those numbers.)

A rubber bullet at point blank range can be lethal.  In fact, the shockwave from a blank can be lethal at the right distance. cite: http://www.ew.com/article/1994/10/14/jon-erik-hexums-fatal-joke

The last type of projectile is the hollow-nosed bullet. This is designed to spread when it enters the body to cause significant damage. It was declared illegal by the Geneva Convention.

The Geneva Convention does not apply to civilians in non-wartime.

When the shooter loads this round into his weapon he is intending to kill his victim.!

Who's the victim? I'm confused.  Regardless, there is a hollow point chambered in my firearm.  It's been there for a few weeks now.  I intend to remove it next week at the range.

This logic is absurd. 

[part deux]

The ammo we used in the FFDO program would be the hollow-nosed bullet. The idea is that because of the close-in shooting scenarios we were training for, max carnage would save the cockpit  and thereby save the airplane. Yet pancake on anything structural if the bullets went astray (which they will). Even if it is outlawed by the Geneva Convention (which is kind of a catch-all phrase).

Awesome, almost understood what you read on the internet... but not quite.

[LD]

Freediver never disappoints.  I knew we could count on you to continue to post nonsense here.  You repeat lies told by others because, I assume, you don't know any better, yet you feel qualified to speak.  Hollow point (nose) bullets are not outlawed by the Geneva Convention.  The correct organization is the Hague Convention (or Hague Peace Conferences).  Also, it is only binding on signatories, of which the USA is NOT one.  The specific 1868 language states:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

Snip...........................

I just read a story about a homeowner who shot someone who was trying to break into her home.  The criminal dropped his gun when he got shot.   I also just read a story about an 88 year-old women who shot at a criminal who kicked her door in at 10:30 PM at night.  I'm sure in your world these woman should have just let the criminal do whatever he wanted.  How can you look yourself in the mirror each morning?

I believe Freediver has said he doesn't want to keep that 88 year old woman from owning a gun and protecting herself.

He just wants her to undergo a background check & get some tactical training.
When she demonstrates that she can  hit 5 "bad guys" out of a group of 15 while running and shooting from cover each year she can have her permit to keep her gun locked up separate from the locked up ammo.