Author Topic: Carry in County Parks  (Read 6254 times)

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Offline skunkworks

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Carry in County Parks
« on: August 18, 2010, 03:55:54 PM »
I first want to say thanks for putting up with all of my questions lately.  You guys have been so helpful with all of my questions.  I'm still learning a lot when it comes to OC.
This question I have comes from an encounter I had with DNR in a county park early this summer and preemption.
I was approached by a park employee for having a canoe in a body of water at a county park.  Apparently despite a lack of restriction of this activity on any sign, the park website, or any list I could find, it is in fact a no-no to launch a watercraft from anywhere other than a recognized boat launch.  I didn't know this at the time.  When told "We don't allow boats in here" I told the employee that I looked and couldn't find any restrictions, but began pulling up my anchor.  He insisted, so I asked if he could tell me where I could find it.
I assure you that I was compliant and polite, but inquisitive.
After a short time, he came back and showed me the statute in writing that applies to all county parks.  I thanked him and began loading the rest of my stuff.
Apparently in the time it took for him to come back, he said something to the DNR officers on duty in the park about a mouthy guy in a canoe who kept saying "show me".  Again I assure you, I was very polite and even told they employee when he came back that I didn't want to cause trouble and thanked him for showing me the rules in writing.
Well, here come the two DNR officers on bikes (tight shorts and all) with a serious attitude.  For some reason I've never met a DNR officer who wasn't in need of switching to decaf.  They confront me about being belligerent and I explain the situation and insist that I was not trying to be impolite or non-compliant, but was simply currious as to why I didn't find any restrictions when I went looking for them.  I informed the officer (as soon as he would let me get a word in) that I was a CPL holder and was carrying a pistol.  He took my information and wrote down my name.  I didn't think it unreasonable because I was being stopped by what seemed to them a legitimate reason. 
Anyhow.... here's the reason I'm posting.  He said that I could not carry in the park.  I said, "Okay, I won't bring it back, but I thought that MI law superseded local ordinance and"...(interrupted)  Officer, "The park can make any rules it wants and if a park employee tells you you can't park there or to move your car, you have to do it.  I bet you also didn't know it is against the law to molest a turtle in our parks either did you!"
This guy was doing his best to assert his authority and make me an idiot.  I was mad as a hornet to be treated like a child, but kept my composure and said a lot of "yes, sir and no, sir".
So...Can a county park restrict open or concealed carry?  Doesn't seem right to me, but I want to be legal.

Offline lil_freak_66

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Re: Carry in County Parks
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 05:13:07 PM »
They cannot tell you not to carry there,the only thing they can restrict is discharging of firearms.

Tell them to look up MCL. 123.1102(the link to this law is below,as well as a direct copy-paste of it) if you are hassled again,if they kick you out anyways,anything you are charged with in regards to carrying would be thrown out of court and they would be in hot water.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2813aevliok0j44azahd03uy55%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-123-1102


A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of  Michigan Open Carry Inc, any other organization, group, person or the law of this or any other municipality,state or country unless otherwise stated.

Offline skunkworks

  • Posts: 22
Re: Carry in County Parks
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 04:59:18 PM »
Thanks, that's what I thought.
Now know that I DID contact my lawyer and ask him.  He said that the county can make any rules it wants.  This doesn't sit right with me.  Can they even make a case for trespassing if the park is a county park and thus a local government?
I think my lawyer is wrong.

Offline TheQ

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Re: Carry in County Parks
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 05:48:32 PM »
I submitted an email today on your behalf on this matter (below).  You will want to follow up with one of your own, since you're more personally vested.  I BCC'd various members of MOC, including: SE Regional Coordinator, President, and venator.  Our President responded in support.

Quote
Ms. Koss,

I am writing you because you appear on the Administrative Contact information for the huroncountyparks.com domain name.

(http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/huroncountyparks.com)

The web form on the contact us page (http://huroncountyparks.com/page3.php) appears broken, so I am reaching out to you to relay my message to the appropriate governing body for the County Parks.


A member of my group was reviewing your park rules prior to a stay and came across rule #4:

4. Firearms, air guns, firecrackers, fireworks, and bow and arrows are prohibited within the park, except where designated or during special events. No hunting on any County Park property.

As a County Park, the park is a publically owned property and thus the rules are a form of local government ordinance.  This much is made clear when you state on the rules page criminal fines may be imposed for violation.  As such, rule #4 violates Michigan State Law, specifically MCL 123.1102, which states:

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28cj5o0vmsaetnow45tnskhb45%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-123-1102

I'd encourage you to review the law and consult your legal council of choice regarding the law and the enforceability of your rule.  If you'd like, I can arrange for someone to come and speak with your governing body about MCL 123.1102 and how it applies to local governments' ability to regulate the carry/possession of firearms.  PLEASE ALSO BE AWARE, attempts to enforce the firearms related segment of rule #4 with a detention performed by a Law Enforcement officer will likely subject the County to VERY costly civil liability for unlawful detention.

Please feel free to write me via email or call with the contact information provided if you have any questions.

Most Sincerely,
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline TheQ

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Re: Carry in County Parks
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 09:02:03 PM »
Sigh -- my previous post in this thread made it into the wrong thread.  Maybe a mod can clean this up for me by deleting this post and the one before it?
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).