My problems with Lansing refusing to issue a Purchase Permit

[autosurgeon]

Ok so now they have proven what I knew all along. They are just screwing with you BC you have questioned some of their action s in the past. I am afraid it will take an attorney to shake them loose.

This is one of the reasons registration was put in place to begin with so that the local yocals can discriminate at will

[TheQ]

Ok so now they have proven what I knew all along. They are just screwing with you BC you have questioned some of their action s in the past. I am afraid it will take an attorney to shake them loose.

This is one of the reasons registration was put in place to begin with so that the local yocals can discriminate at will

It was pretty bad.  They (the unit man and his boss) wouldn't let me in the conference room right outside the chief's office while they spoke with freak.  I should have been more assertive on this point.

When they left the room I asked: "When can he reasonably expect to hear back from you?"  They refused to even acknowledge me, saying: "We were speaking to him, are you an attorney?"

Is this a court room?  Do I have to be an attorney in order to participate (with the police) in a discussion about someone elses' rights?

[lil_freak_66]

We were in the conference room,it wasnt a court,and obviously not court related(yet,if they keep it up ill make it court related)

Is anyone interested in Attending the city council meetings?they are every monday.

[smellslikemichigan]

geez, this whole thing is ridiculous.  good luck. 

[Bronson]

If I remember correctly it has to do with the separation of powers between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of the government.  As it was explained to me the Legislative branch doesn't have the authority to dictate conduct within the purview of the Judicial branches bailiwick.  If you notice in the quoted Local Administrative Order (LAO) the penalty for disobeying is contmept of court, not a criminal charge of violating an MCL.

You can look up Michigan Supreme Court Administrative Orders here: http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/resources/other/lao.htm#spcf

Under the Required Local Administrative Orders heading you can click the second to the last link which is for Security Policies for Court Facilities LAO 15 to jump directly to the order....it's almost half-way down the page.

State Court Administrative Office
Model Local Administrative Order 15 - Security Policy for Court Facilities (Rev. 12/06)


[LOCAL COURT LETTERHEAD]


Administrative Order [Year] - [Number]

   
SECURITY POLICY FOR COURT FACILITIES


   This administrative order is issued in accordance with Michigan Supreme Court Administrative Order No. 2001-1.  The purpose of this order is to address the presence of weapons in court facilities.

IT IS ORDERED:

   1.   No weapons are allowed in the (courthouse, courtroom, office, or space used for official court business or by judicial employees).  This prohibition does not apply to court security personnel or to uniformed or otherwise properly identified law enforcement officers in the performance of their official duties.  The chief judge may authorize additional exceptions in extraordinary circumstances..

   2.   All persons and their belongings (unless specifically excepted) and all parcels are subject to screening by (sheriff’s deputies, court officers, security personnel) for the purpose of preventing weapons and other prohibited or restricted items from entering the facility.

If at any time there is an articulable and reasonable suspicion that a weapon may be found, a person or object is subject to search.  The search shall be no more intrusive than necessary to protect against the dangers presented.

3.   Notice shall be posted that "No weapons are permitted in this (courthouse, courtroom, office, or space used for official court business or by judicial employees).  All persons and parcels are subject to a search for weapons and other prohibited or restricted items as a condition of entry.  Persons in violation of this order may be held in contempt of court.”

4.   Persons in violation of this order may be held in contempt of court.

Date: ____________________   ___________________________________    
                        CHIEF CIRCUIT JUDGE

Date: ____________________   ___________________________________    
                        CHIEF PROBATE JUDGE

Date: ____________________   ___________________________________    
                        CHIEF DISTRICT JUDGE

Bronson
 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Okay,

I'll try again. Tyler if you follow this advice, then call local media outlets, (which will in turn call Virg Bernero's office with questions). The threat of attention most likely get them to give it to you.

If at all possible you want to take as many witnesses as possible & multiple cameras. You may want to wait until you get back from hunting so you can organize this. Just an idea here - several days before you go call the mayors office and tell them that you will be filming this encounter and you will be making the video available to the mayors opponent if the permit is denied, so they can use it to demonstrate how little control this mayor has over Lansing police & how could he be trusted with the armed forces of the entire state. I bet you have no issues getting your permit when you show up. Often in life timing is everything. Virg is fighting tooth & nail to hang on to power! He won't risk getting a black eye in the media over this (piss-ant) issue. Trust me, if there's one thing I know it's how these ass-hat's think. You have nothing to lose & everything to gain.

[lil_freak_66]

Well who would like to help out?

They do purchase permits M-W 8-3,city hall meetings are Mondays at 7 or 7:30 i believe.

They called today(not even 5 minutes before this posting) saying they are still working on it,and asked alot of questions about my ruger 10/22...where it was obtained from,when it was modified to become a pistol,why i had it,where and how i sent the registration.
No questions about the new purchase permit,though he did say they are waiting for some information from another police agency before they can move forward,i personally think he is BS'ing,but thats what he said.

[CV67PAT]

I told you months ago that you had a problem with that gun. You didn't believe me then. Your problems with that gun are about to grow. I advised you back then to seek competent counsel. You blew me off. You have some very serious issues coming down the pike. There are other issues you have that I tried to raise on this forum, but was chastised by Jeff Sayers for doing so. I said it before, and I'll say it again, you have some very, very serious problems headed your way. You were a minor in possession of an unregistered pistol when the LPD roughed you up in your home. I told you that issue would come back to haunt you. Well there you go. WTF do I know? I'm just a troll.

[DetroitBiker]

Looks like the guy with the Makarov is not gonna wait http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1002498&postcount=12

[lil_freak_66]

Yeah i told him not to wait if he gets another offer,it could be awhile before i get a permit,if i get the purchase permit soon then i still have a chance at getting it,otherwise ill be picking up a different firearm.

and pat,your still a trouble maker,and know nothing of what is going on,this has nothing to do with me being in possession of an unregistered handgun,everything i own is lawful,and possessed in a lawful manner.
They are giving me trouble(at least this is mine,and quite a few others opinions) that i am being unlawfully harassed about the purchase permit because ive reported a few officers for various things,unlawful search and seizure,trespassing under color of authority,excessive force and a few other charges,which you dont need to know any details about other than it does not involve me in possesion unlawfully of any type of firearm.

I was called back after my original post,was told the reason they were asking is because they were not sure if my ruger was actually supposed to be considered a rifle,they originally thought i was trying to register a rifle as a pistol,after they checked with some other agencies i was called back and told it is indeed a pistol,as i had stated to them.

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Well who would like to help out?

They do purchase permits M-W 8-3,city hall meetings are Mondays at 7 or 7:30 i believe.

They called today(not even 5 minutes before this posting) saying they are still working on it,and asked alot of questions about my ruger 10/22...where it was obtained from,when it was modified to become a pistol,why i had it,where and how i sent the registration.
No questions about the new purchase permit,though he did say they are waiting for some information from another police agency before they can move forward,i personally think he is BS'ing,but thats what he said.



I would seek the assistance of someone well versed in Section 28 of the firearms law such as Venator who is local to you. Let that person speak on camera for you. There are many on this & other forums who have supported you in the past I would suggest reaching out to them in PM's / Emails so you don't tip your hand to LPD too early. 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Also - I would limit my comments to LEO's, it sounds as if they are "fishing". Any info you give them [other than your purchase permit request] is undoubtedly being compiled to be used against you. If you are not a felon, or have some other "issue" that they are using as a grounds for denial & you have passed the written test & background checks then they MUST issue period! I know & they know that your resources are limited. This is why they are messing about with you. Follow the advise given in previous post. That should motivate them somewhat. Then (if you have not already) contact the MI. ACLU & the DOJ offices (Federal) in Detroit. Lansing PD is clearly targeting you (OC bias) which opens them up to litigation & Federal investigations.

PM me your contact info on OCDO & we can talk if you like. What I would also suggest is you put the original stock back on the 10/22 & re-register as a rifle for now; (I'll explain if we talk...I've got an idea I think you'll like).

[CV67PAT]

Once registered as a pistol... always a pistol in Michigan.

And he had the pistol stock on it when the LPD were in his house pushing him around and questioning him about OC. He even let the LPD walk around his house with the 10/22 pistol and put it in the bath tub. At this time he was a minor... 17 years old... and the 10/22 was NOT registered as a pistol in anyone's name. The LPD is fully aware of ALL of these facts. But I'm a trouble maker?

There are also questions of possible scofflaw status that has been raised before. This is also a bonafide reason to deny a permit to purchase.

The WHOLE story needs to be told. But it isn't in the interest of Little Freak to be honest, truthful. and forthright when attempting to rally support from MOC.

[lil_freak_66]

Again,Pat,you have no proof of any such claims,and if i was indeed committing acts you say that i have,do you not think they would have denied my first two permits,and brought up criminal charges on such things?

It was not until i took something to Internal Affairs attention that i started having any troubles with them issuing a permit.

Mostly i told them on the phone today was that the ruger was indeed acquired from a private person,the overall length,and that it is an aftermarket stock which causes it to fall between 26 and 30 inches,making it a pistol.

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Okay we need to be clear on a few things. In the past (Tyler) you had mentioned that LPD never processed the original paperwork on the 10/22 correct? If so then it is still a rifle & you're ok to have it in your procession. If not can they provide proof of the 10/22 pistol registration with MSP? If not you're still ok. Just put the original stock on it & keep it that way until all the questions from them stop. For God's sake do not speak to them any further without the advice of an attorney.

[TheQ]

Okay we need to be clear on a few things. In the past (Tyler) you had mentioned that LPD never processed the original paperwork on the 10/22 correct? If so then it is still a rifle & you're ok to have it in your procession. If not can they provide proof of the 10/22 pistol registration with MSP? If not you're still ok. Just put the original stock on it & keep it that way until all the questions from them stop. For God's sake do not speak to them any further without the advice of an attorney.

+1 You have the right to remain silent.

[anetsprungen]

Pat,

It has become quite clear that for whatever reason, you don't trust Tyler.  That is your right.  But be mindful that you don't publicly chastise or humiliate him on this forum.  That is NOT your right.  Challenging the trust that MOC, Inc. has in his judgement is borderline.


Tyler,

You have multiple issues with the LPD.  Your relationship with them started when you were a minor.  They have become publicly embarassed by their ignorance, however they are unwilling to acknowledge that or apologize.  They are being extremely cautious, to a fault, but like has been said already, in the hope that you will drop it.


I agree with Glock9mmOldStyle's assessment and recommendation.  There are ways to deal with the bureaucracy.  But I think the 10/22 will be a thorn until it is resolved.  The interchangeability of parts/components is causing LEOs to reevaluate how they register weapons, because in one configuration they are clearly a rifle while in another, they are a pistol, yet either can be changed over to the other configuration in minutes.

My recommendation is to change the 10/22 back to its original configuration as a rifle, pursue the registration for the pistol, then pursue the registration of the 10/22 as a pistol.  That is my opinion.


Roy Sprunger
Forum Administrator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

[Evil Creamsicle]

Pat,

Challenging the trust that MOC, Inc. has in his judgement is borderline.

I don't know, I think he has that right too, just as we have the right to challenge the judgement of our government...



Tyler, I agree with all posted above that you may want to put the rifle stock back on it for now.

[anetsprungen]

Pat,

Challenging the trust that MOC, Inc. has in his judgement is borderline.

I don't know, I think he has that right too, just as we have the right to challenge the judgement of our government...



Tyler, I agree with all posted above that you may want to put the rifle stock back on it for now.

The key to using "borderline" is in the details.  Embellishments and adjectives that demean or denigrate another person are unacceptable behavior if they can be determined by a Moderator to fall within the guidance provided by the "Language and Trolling" and "Personal Attacks" descriptions in our Forum Rules.  Many of Pat Dunbar's posts are provocative.   That alone, is justification to implement "The moderators of Michigan Open Carry Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason."  However, I have chosen to review each incidence in the context in which it happens.

Challenging is not a bad thing.  But much depends on the language used to make the challenge.  A blasphemous tirade is clearly objectionable, but some things are much more subtle and not nearly so obvious.  There is often a fine line between 'challenge' and 'attack'.  Where one person may see workd that prod & probe, another may see a literal attack.

Sometimes I intervene, other times I don't.


Roy
 

[Evil Creamsicle]

I agree 

Just wanted to be sure that was pointed out.