MSP legal update NEW INFO!

[autosurgeon]

Mr. Ranson,

I am the author of the Legal Update you you attached to your e-mail.  Thank you for taking the time to confirm the validity of the document.  It has not been posted on our MSP Legal Update Web site as the document has not been finalized.  I will be making a slight change on page two under the MCL 28.425o section to accurately reflect that casino parking lots are included in the pistol free zones.  Once approved through my chain of command, it will be assigned a Legal Update number and posted on the internet.

Sincerely,


Sergeant Aimee Maike
Training and Standards Division
Michigan State Police
7426 N. Canal Road
Lansing, MI  48913
(517) 636-6031


Attached is the DRAFT MSP legal update

[jeffsayers]

Very nice. So, do we really need to keep handing out our tri-folds? 

[FatboyCykes]

AS, maybe it's just me, but I would like the language clarified in this paragraph...

MCL 750.231a also provides that a pistol transported for a “lawful purpose” by a person not licensed to carry a concealed pistol must be all of the following:

Unloaded

In a closed case designed for firearms

In the trunk (or if the vehicle has no trunk, it must not be readily accessible to the occupants)
There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intended to “open carry” may be in violation of MCL 750.227.

The bolded part might need some clarification that a pistol being transported improperly could be in violation.  Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but this bolded section caught my eye and it took me a few to see that it isn't referencing the "lawful purpose" when it speaks to a violation of 750.277

[BTAvery]

wait so transporting is now prohibited? need an explanation.

[emt805]

Bingo!

"Officers must be aware of the above exemption for valid CPL holders as many of the citizens who openly carry firearms possess valid CPLs. An individual with a valid CPL may carry a visible firearm in the above listed premises.
A CPL holder is not required by law to carry a pistol concealed. A CPL holder may carry a pistol concealed or visible."

"MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid CPL shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistol-free zone. First offense is a state civil infraction. The following is a list of the premises (excluding parking lots) included in
the statute:
School or school property, except a parent or legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle
Public or private day care center
Sports arena or stadium
A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of liquor by the glass is the primary source of income (does not apply to owner or employee of the business).
Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless authorized by the presiding official
An entertainment facility that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

A hospital

A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
A casino
Note, the above statute applies to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. If the CPL holder is carrying a visible pistol, the statute does not apply. As noted above, the unlawful premises listed in MCL 750.234d do not apply to persons with a valid CPL. Therefore, a person with a valid CPL may carry a visible pistol in the areas described in MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d."





I also agree on the wording of "there is not way to "open carry" a pistol in vehicle" It leaves it open for the leo to make his own judgement

[FatboyCykes]

wait so transporting is now prohibited? need an explanation.

No, she's saying that there is no OC in a vehicle, that would be considered CC, requiring a CPL, unless stowed properly.  The offending MCL is a CC statute if you click on it.  It's just worded poorly.

[autosurgeon]

Also she is right in a way as local prosecutors are not all on board with the for any lawful purpose position.

[jeffsayers]

Well, the law states "Lawful purpose INCLUDES...". If it read "Lawful purpose CONSISTS OF..." then it would be different.

Perhaps if Autosurgeon asks she might add something to the effect of "The law does not state this list as being all-inclusive." Or even better, "Lawful purpose includes, but is not limited to, the following:"

[autosurgeon]

Well until there is case law this will always be up to the prosecutor unfortunately.

[northofnowhere]

If her chain of command approves that update this is an amazing step forward.  The wife doesn't really care for guns, except she cant sleep without one in the bedroom, go figure.  She was stuck with me while I uploaded pics to her Facebook account for her, so I read it aloud to her three or so times.  I am very pleased with this publication, despite a few areas wording could have been better.

I would have to say we need to rethink our documents we hand out to the public and police at this point.  While there is still a need, we should probably find a way to incorporate the State Police Legal Update into our handouts and update everything we use.

Very good news, very exciting!

-Jason

[autosurgeon]

The update is now live! http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/Legal_Updates_185809_7.pdf

[sprinklerguy28]

This is awesome. What a huge victory for everyone. My sincere thank you to autosurgeon for seeing this through. You are a true asset to the OC community.

[autosurgeon]

Thank you for the kind words.. but all I did was verify the document.. Sergeant Aimee Maike did the hard work of researching and putting this together.

I am very pleased with the continued progress in my State!!

[jeffsayers]

I like that the final version has the word "includes" underlined in the transport section. Sort of gives a clue for an officer and/or citizen to realize the fact that this is not a limiting list but a suggestive list.

[autosurgeon]

That is nice.. I noticed a few other nice clarifications as well!

I also have found that the good Sergeant is very nice to work with! I appreciate people who take pride in good work!

[autosurgeon]

I posted all four MSP legal updates that have mentioned OC in one thread in the OC questions section.

[emt805]

One thing I noticed while talking to the reporter about my electioin day event is that there is nothing stated about being able to carry on public property without being tresspassed and that there is no metion of being able to carry in public buildings ie fire hall, police dept, and city hall as informed by MCRGO v Ferndale, 256 Mich. App. 401, (2003)

[autosurgeon]

Those things not explicitly restricted by law are legal... that is how our system works.

[BTAvery]

Those things not explicitly restricted by law are legal... that is how our system works.

And thats why this country is the best country

[emt805]

Right but it points out that there is no law restricting open carry, I was talking from an education the public/ leo's about it being legal and people carring are not able to be tresspassed/ told to leave from those locations that are public property or may be miss marked like the PD lobby they tried to kick you all out of.

[emt805]

I was just rereading this update it states

"A private property owner has the right to prohibit individuals from carrying a visible or concealed pistol on his or her property. If a person remains on the property after being told to leave by the owner, the person may be charged with trespassing (MCL 750.552)."

It says that the property owner has the right to prohibit people from carrying, it does not say anything about managers, reps, or employees having the right to prohibit people from carrying a firarm. Any thoughts?

[autosurgeon]

Remember this is just a synopsis the underlying law still carries the true weight. And the law gives anyone carrying out the owners wishes or working on his or her behalf the power of the owner in regards to trespassing.

[BTAvery]

Now you have me all confused if my mother rents a property and I stay with her can I legally Conceal on the property?

[autosurgeon]

hmmmm I will leave that one to an attorney.

[emt805]

I was just rereading this update it states

"A private property owner has the right to prohibit individuals from carrying a visible or concealed pistol on his or her property. If a person remains on the property after being told to leave by the owner, the person may be charged with trespassing (MCL 750.552)."

It says that the property owner has the right to prohibit people from carrying, it does not say anything about managers, reps, or employees having the right to prohibit people from carrying a firarm. Any thoughts?

After further review they only copied and pasted some of the law and not all of it.
750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.
Sec. 552.

(1) A person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(c) Enter or remain without lawful authority on fenced or posted farm property of another person without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent. A request to leave the premises is not a necessary element for a violation of this subdivision. This subdivision does not apply to a person who is in the process of attempting, by the most direct route, to contact the owner or his or her lessee or agent to request consent.

(2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 30 days or by a fine of not more than $250.00, or both.
History: Add. 1951, Act 102, Imd. Eff. May 31, 1951 ;-- Am. 2007, Act 167, Eff. Mar. 20, 2008




But on that note who would qualify as occupant or agent of the owner or occupant? Would that be blanketed to include anyone working at said location or just who the owner allows to have that authority be it the guy who had a bad day making min wage or a manager?

[Bronson]

Now you have me all confused if my mother rents a property and I stay with her can I legally Conceal on the property?

Do you actually live there or just spending a couple of nights?

MCL 750.227 states:

92) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

Bronson

[13mile9]

Hey, thanks for distibuting that info.  I usually keep a watch on those updates, but haven't looked there for the past few months.  Thank you!

[BTAvery]

Now you have me all confused if my mother rents a property and I stay with her can I legally Conceal on the property?

Do you actually live there or just spending a couple of nights?

MCL 750.227 states:

92) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

Bronson

right now i'm visiting but soon will be living there as a full time resident

[northofnowhere]

Until it is your place of residence, the place would call your "Dwelling House" then no, you cannot conceal there.  Wrong as it may be, that is the wording of the law.

My question resulting from reading all this.....   Without a CPL, could you keep a loaded firearm on or near you in a hotel room.  Quite frankly, before I had my CPL I would transport a firearm with me, but would surely load it and place it near me in the room.  Would a hotel room be considered a dwelling house, or perhaps even "other land possessed by the individual?"  You are technically paying rent on the property, however short term it is.

[jeffsayers]

Without a CPL, could you keep a loaded firearm on or near you in a hotel room.

So long as you do not take it in the washroom. The moment you enter a relief facility, public or private, it would be cosidered concealed. 
Obvious note - The above comment came from the main fixture of said relief facility.

Anyway, that is a good question, especially if the room has a mini bar in it! Curious to see what our collective minds come up with on this one.