Author Topic: MSP legal update NEW INFO!  (Read 28685 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« on: October 20, 2010, 09:01:32 AM »
Mr. Ranson,

I am the author of the Legal Update you you attached to your e-mail.  Thank you for taking the time to confirm the validity of the document.  It has not been posted on our MSP Legal Update Web site as the document has not been finalized.  I will be making a slight change on page two under the MCL 28.425o section to accurately reflect that casino parking lots are included in the pistol free zones.  Once approved through my chain of command, it will be assigned a Legal Update number and posted on the internet.

Sincerely,


Sergeant Aimee Maike
Training and Standards Division
Michigan State Police
7426 N. Canal Road
Lansing, MI  48913
(517) 636-6031


Attached is the DRAFT MSP legal update
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 11:07:05 AM by autosurgeon »
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline jeffsayers

  • MOC Charter Member
  • **
  • Posts: 258
  • Do you really want to go there with me?
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »
Very nice. So, do we really need to keep handing out our tri-folds?  ;D
United we STAND!
I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline FatboyCykes

  • Posts: 242
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 01:51:22 PM »
AS, maybe it's just me, but I would like the language clarified in this paragraph...

Quote
MCL 750.231a also provides that a pistol transported for a “lawful purpose” by a person not licensed to carry a concealed pistol must be all of the following:

Unloaded

In a closed case designed for firearms

In the trunk (or if the vehicle has no trunk, it must not be readily accessible to the occupants)
There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where he or she intended to “open carry” may be in violation of MCL 750.227.

The bolded part might need some clarification that a pistol being transported improperly could be in violation.  Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but this bolded section caught my eye and it took me a few to see that it isn't referencing the "lawful purpose" when it speaks to a violation of 750.277

Offline BTAvery

  • Posts: 233
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 06:57:25 PM »
wait so transporting is now prohibited? need an explanation.

Offline emt805

  • Posts: 229
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 07:31:58 PM »
Bingo!

"Officers must be aware of the above exemption for valid CPL holders as many of the citizens who openly carry firearms possess valid CPLs. An individual with a valid CPL may carry a visible firearm in the above listed premises.
A CPL holder is not required by law to carry a pistol concealed. A CPL holder may carry a pistol concealed or visible."

"MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid CPL shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistol-free zone. First offense is a state civil infraction. The following is a list of the premises (excluding parking lots) included in
the statute:
School or school property, except a parent or legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle
Public or private day care center
Sports arena or stadium
A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of liquor by the glass is the primary source of income (does not apply to owner or employee of the business).
Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless authorized by the presiding official
An entertainment facility that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

A hospital

A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
A casino
Note, the above statute applies to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. If the CPL holder is carrying a visible pistol, the statute does not apply. As noted above, the unlawful premises listed in MCL 750.234d do not apply to persons with a valid CPL. Therefore, a person with a valid CPL may carry a visible pistol in the areas described in MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d."





I also agree on the wording of "there is not way to "open carry" a pistol in vehicle" It leaves it open for the leo to make his own judgement

Offline FatboyCykes

  • Posts: 242
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 07:51:52 PM »
wait so transporting is now prohibited? need an explanation.

No, she's saying that there is no OC in a vehicle, that would be considered CC, requiring a CPL, unless stowed properly.  The offending MCL is a CC statute if you click on it.  It's just worded poorly.


Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2010, 09:07:09 PM »
Also she is right in a way as local prosecutors are not all on board with the for any lawful purpose position.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline jeffsayers

  • MOC Charter Member
  • **
  • Posts: 258
  • Do you really want to go there with me?
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2010, 10:18:00 AM »
Well, the law states "Lawful purpose INCLUDES...". If it read "Lawful purpose CONSISTS OF..." then it would be different.

Perhaps if Autosurgeon asks she might add something to the effect of "The law does not state this list as being all-inclusive." Or even better, "Lawful purpose includes, but is not limited to, the following:"
United we STAND!
I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2010, 11:03:16 AM »
Well until there is case law this will always be up to the prosecutor unfortunately.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline northofnowhere

  • Posts: 281
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2010, 04:39:15 AM »
If her chain of command approves that update this is an amazing step forward.  The wife doesn't really care for guns, except she cant sleep without one in the bedroom, go figure.  She was stuck with me while I uploaded pics to her Facebook account for her, so I read it aloud to her three or so times.  I am very pleased with this publication, despite a few areas wording could have been better.

I would have to say we need to rethink our documents we hand out to the public and police at this point.  While there is still a need, we should probably find a way to incorporate the State Police Legal Update into our handouts and update everything we use.

Very good news, very exciting!

-Jason
Jason E. Reese aka northofnowher

Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2010, 11:28:18 AM »
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline sprinklerguy28

  • Posts: 66
    • Webb Tactical
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2010, 11:44:54 AM »
This is awesome. What a huge victory for everyone. My sincere thank you to autosurgeon for seeing this through. You are a true asset to the OC community.

Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 11:50:53 AM »
Thank you for the kind words.. but all I did was verify the document.. Sergeant Aimee Maike did the hard work of researching and putting this together.

I am very pleased with the continued progress in my State!!
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline jeffsayers

  • MOC Charter Member
  • **
  • Posts: 258
  • Do you really want to go there with me?
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2010, 11:59:00 AM »
I like that the final version has the word "includes" underlined in the transport section. Sort of gives a clue for an officer and/or citizen to realize the fact that this is not a limiting list but a suggestive list.
United we STAND!
I open carry for the same reason God gave poisonous animals bright colors.

Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2010, 02:45:08 PM »
That is nice.. I noticed a few other nice clarifications as well!

I also have found that the good Sergeant is very nice to work with! I appreciate people who take pride in good work!
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 04:13:23 PM »
I posted all four MSP legal updates that have mentioned OC in one thread in the OC questions section.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline emt805

  • Posts: 229
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2010, 01:51:31 AM »
One thing I noticed while talking to the reporter about my electioin day event is that there is nothing stated about being able to carry on public property without being tresspassed and that there is no metion of being able to carry in public buildings ie fire hall, police dept, and city hall as informed by MCRGO v Ferndale, 256 Mich. App. 401, (2003)

Offline autosurgeon

  • MOC Treasurer
  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • First Name (Displayed): Ryan
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2010, 06:59:36 AM »
Those things not explicitly restricted by law are legal... that is how our system works.
Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Offline BTAvery

  • Posts: 233
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »
Those things not explicitly restricted by law are legal... that is how our system works.
And thats why this country is the best country

Offline emt805

  • Posts: 229
Re: MSP legal update NEW INFO!
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2010, 03:19:39 PM »
Right but it points out that there is no law restricting open carry, I was talking from an education the public/ leo's about it being legal and people carring are not able to be tresspassed/ told to leave from those locations that are public property or may be miss marked like the PD lobby they tried to kick you all out of.