post office

[kryptonian]

every morning i stop at speedway for drinks for work OC of course a couple of times a week i pull into post office to throw something in the drive up box. if i was followed out of speedway by LEO and saw me pull into usps (federal building) could i be in violation of law? state or federal? better question would be - is post office off limits for OC? i don't OC if i need to go inside of course.

as long as i am on the topic of state and federal law i remember when i was LEO in texas that when somebody went into the airport and thru the security screener with a handgun they of course got arrested. this was mid 80s before texas adopted CPL. the person would be taken to jail and given state charges and go the whole court route. after all that is said and done - fines, jail, probation, etc. the feds come in and levy a fine for them too. was $2000 then. post 9/11 and 25 years later i'm sure it's a lot more. don't know how that isn't double jeopardy. i'm sure it still goes on now. i asked a buddy who was airport police how often this happens. he said every day. a lot of these people forgot they had it in a purse or luggage. just wondered if the same awaited me or somebody at the post office.

[autosurgeon]

Yes the post office and parking lot are off limits... as far as I understand the laws.

[NHCGRPR45]

no you would be fine. parking lots are exempted. i have had to go to the ATF office in downtown detroit to turn in a suppressor bought in another state, and then again recently to finish some paperwork on the same issue. per the ATF agent all federal property parking lots at least in MI are fine so long as you do not try to go past a check point into a building. post offices are fine, and apparently so is the ATF office downtown. its also exempted in mi law, post offices at least. and my gun board has said that leaving your gun in your vehicle is fine at any post office in MI.

[autosurgeon]

Well just so you are aware there was a case where a postal employee was convicted for having a gun in his car on postal property.. kinda funny as you can mail long guns and FFL's cam mail handguns..

That is why I am hesitant to recommend it!

[BailEnforcer]

From what I understand you can posse a firearm in the parking lot of the USPS only; but, like any other Federal building you can not take it past the doors.  If I remember right the Postal employee autosurgeon referred to was only charged because he passed the line from public parking lot into the secured employees lot which is a restricted area.

[NHCGRPR45]

hmm, i am not familiar with that case, however it sounds like bail maybe right. the gate may indeed pass as a "check point". i had to pass a "check point" at the BATFE in detroit but i had previously gotten permission from the agent in charge of my case to bring my firearm onto the property. i also had to get permission to bring the suppressor onto the property as well. as suppressors carry the same legal weight as firearms. i was met at the gate by an ATF agent and escorted to into the building. at which time i was taken into an interview room/interrogation room because thats what it was..... there were 2 more agents and the anilyst who had done the research into my registered silencer. we had coffee and a chat and i turned over the silencer and they commented that it was a really good quality one, and said the ones they most often see are the home made ones. and asked if i wanted to give it to them then or leave with it and try to sell it to a dealer in class 3 type items. they were actually quite nice and professional. the coffee was pretty bad though, so i don't recommend a visit to sample the coffee.

[Bronson]

Well just so you are aware there was a case where a postal employee was convicted for having a gun in his car on postal property.. kinda funny as you can mail long guns and FFL's cam mail handguns..

That is why I am hesitant to recommend it!

I believe in that particular case the employee was in the fenced in, non-public, parking area and that it was determined that the laws against possession only apply to the non-public lot.

I'm too tired to find the cite right now.

Bronson

[autosurgeon]

You may be right Bronson.. I will have dig up the case Monday as I will not have time today.

[CV67PAT]

In that case there were 2 issues...

1- He was convicted of possession while committing a crime: Private vehicle in secure area for loading of mail.

2- He was convicted for violation of CFR, not USC, as a condition of employment.

So no protection under "lawful purposes" that apply to us.

[autosurgeon]

I am learning stuff! That is a good thing!

[venator]

no you would be fine. parking lots are exempted. i have had to go to the ATF office in downtown detroit to turn in a suppressor bought in another state, and then again recently to finish some paperwork on the same issue. per the ATF agent all federal property parking lots at least in MI are fine so long as you do not try to go past a check point into a building. post offices are fine, and apparently so is the ATF office downtown. its also exempted in mi law, post offices at least. and my gun board has said that leaving your gun in your vehicle is fine at any post office in MI.

The only parking lots exempted are the ones in the statute.  Many parking lots are not exempted.  Be careful a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58,
MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

(2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under
section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated pursuant to the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, the Initiated Law of 1996, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

(3) As used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

[CV67PAT]

I can't find a federal law related to post offices that prohibits possession of a firearm, other than while committing a crime, in either parking lots or buildings.

[Bronson]

Found this: U.S. vs. Dorosan

While it doesn't specifically say that only the secured parking areas are off-limits it is hinted at (bolded emphasis added).

pg. 6

Section 232.1(1) bans the storage or possession of weapons (concealed or otherwise) in an
enclosed postal parking lot, whereas 18 U.S.C. § 930(a) bans simple possession of a firearm in a
federal facility/building provided the requisite notice is posted as described in § 930(h).

pg. 11-12

The ban at issue does not affect the right of all individuals to bear arms at home or traveling in a vehicle to and from work through high crime areas. Its reach does not extend beyond the noticed, gated confines of United States Postal Services’ property.

Dorosan was found to be in violation and his petition for appeal was denied.

Bronson

[CV67PAT]

18 U.S.C. § 930(a) "Except as provided in subsection (d)..."

                       "(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to— ..."
                       "(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility    incident to hunting or other lawful purposes."

                        "(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be. "

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

[Bronson]

18 U.S.C. § 930(a) "Except as provided in subsection (d)..."

                       "(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to— ..."
                       "(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility    incident to hunting or other lawful purposes."

                        "(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be. "

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html

Per 39 USC 410, 18 U.S.C. § 930 doesn't apply in this instance.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening

§ 410. Application of other laws

Release date: 2003-06-24

(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;

Thus it would appear, by operation of 39 USC 410, that 18 USC 930, a law that deals generally with Federal property, does not apply to the Powers of the Postal Service. Rather, the only provisions of 18 USC that would apply are those specific to the post office e.g. Theft of Mail, Robbing Post Offices, Stealing Postal Money Orders etc. Further evidence of the proposition that 18 USC 930 does not apply to post offices is in the numbering of the aforementioned 39 CFR 232.1. As we will later examine, 39 CFR 232.1 clearly prohibits carrying firearms. CFR sections typically draw their numbering from the underlying laws that they are promulgated under, although there are numerous exceptions. The numbering of 39 CFR would be further evidence that 39 USC controls the situation, and not 18 USC.

Bronson

[CV67PAT]

From your initial link Bronson:

"The United States emphasizes that the Postal Service utilizes both 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a) and 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(1) in tandem to effect workplace and public safety on United States Postal Service property."

 So 18 U.S.C. § 930 does apply. Further research will reveal to you that only employees have been successfully prosecuted under  39 C.F.R. § 232.1(1). And that no non-employee has ever been.

http://volokh.com/files/dorosan.pdf