Changed my mind on Serpas.

[Michigander]

I used to think they were an okay budget choice, if not ideal, and certainly not worthy of all the trash talking they get. I always say I like to admit to having been wrong because it means I learned something, and this is no exception. I've discovered I don't like them at all.

Over the past couple says, I've had a borrowed M&P which I've been experimenting with, unloaded with a Serpa Sportster. I'm doing a lot of studying for state mechanics licenses, and every time I need to take a break, I've been drawing, dry firing, re-holstering, and generally trying to get a feel for it. 

3 times the M&P has become caught in the Serpa by my shirt tail in such a way that it makes the gun very difficult to get out. This I am guessing is less of an issue with different mounts, but I still don't like it. You could argue also that you simply have to be careful upon re-holstering. I don't like that concept, because there are many reported cases of re holstered handguns having to be re drawn because of an assailant getting back up after the defender thought they were down for good. This problem is non existent in my now over a year with my Safariland.

Once while doing a fairly fast draw I ended up with my finger in the trigger guard, with the gun pointed just barely past my leg. I do believe that in a high stress life and death situation, small little motor skills go straight out the window, and I now believe firmly that at least with some gun shapes, including this one, drawing fast from a Serpa could easily cost a user their knee cap.

While I still have yet to see an example of a verified real world case of a Serpa getting debris stuck behind the retention button in the course of real use, I nonetheless believe the other issues are serious enough that I can no longer recommend them. Not that I will argue with folks who use, like and trust them, but after experiencing this, I cannot endorse them at all. Safariland models can be had for as little as 20 dollars more, and that is now going to be my number one suggestion to people looking for retention. 

In continuing my quest for knowledge, I'd love to hear about it if Serpa users wish to tell me any opposing viewpoints.

[Bronson]

the M&P has become caught in the Serpa by my shirt tail in such a way that it makes the gun very difficult to get out....  This problem is non existent in my now over a year with my Safariland.

It has happened with my Safariland once.  I holstered the pistol in the car and a bit of my shirt got caught in it.  I was able to get it out with a strong tug but it was in there pretty good.

Bronson

[BailEnforcer]

I prefer the FOBUS line myself.  My USP came with a complete ROTO set.  A Padle holster that is interchangeable with Shoulder, & Drop Leg systems.  The have some nice rigs for most pistols and many have level 2 retention. 

When I carried a Baretta 96D I used an Uncle Mikes Level 3 when I wore a drop leg holster.  Never have had any issues with either type.

[BTAvery]

On the subject of having to redraw.  That sounds like inexperience to me why in the world would you reholster if theres any possiblity that my attacker is still alive i'm going to find cover and keep my firearm drawn and ready to shoot again. The only time that I would holster would be when the cops arrived or when someone else could watch the attacker with a firearm well I if needed help someone in need of medical attention.

[Michigander]

On the subject of having to redraw.  That sounds like inexperience to me why in the world would you reholster if theres any possiblity that my attacker is still alive i'm going to find cover and keep my firearm drawn and ready to shoot again. The only time that I would holster would be when the cops arrived or when someone else could watch the attacker with a firearm well I if needed help someone in need of medical attention.

What could lead to something happening is far less important than the fact it could happen.

Off the top of my head, a few reasons why someone might reholster are indeed inexperience, or perhaps that they need to keep their weapon secure. Perhaps to administer first aid. Perhaps to help facilitate driving. What if you're trying to stop someone from bleeding to death when the friends of the banger you shoot arrive to kill you?

That said, this particular issue may be more of an issue with the close to the body mounting bracket than an issue of the holster itself, however I still find that they are more problematic in this regard than any other holster I've ever used. The tight tolerances of moving parts, including the draw itself, strike me as less than appealing. That said, I may also have the same problems with many other kydex holsters. I just wouldn't know because I've only extensively used nylon, leather and Safariland. So take my opinions for what they are worth. 

[jeffsayers]

...That said, this particular issue may be more of an issue with the close to the body mounting bracket than an issue of the holster itself...

Was the serpa you used the paddle style or belt mounted version? The serpa I use goes directly on the belt and I've not had an issue with the pistol and shirt fighting for holster real estate as of yet; granted I haven't really practiced stressful reholstering.  Just an observation.

[BTAvery]

Now that that other guy mentioned it do you carry with the paddle? Because paddles carry really friggen close to the body (after looking at mine really friggen close). I normally use the belt version which puts about 3 inches between my waist and where the gun actually sits.

[Bronson]

I think there is the potential for this to happen with most any automatic locking holster like the Serpa or the Safariland ALS (which I have).  If I remember correctly Michigander is using the Safariland SLS which has a rotating hood instead of an automatic lock.

With the Serpa or ALS models if you have a bit of shirt stuck between the gun and interior of the holster and get the gun in far enough it will still lock into place.  With either of these systems it takes a relatively small amount of upward pressure on the gun to keep it from unlocking easily.

Bronson

[emt805]

I think there is the potential for this to happen with most any automatic locking holster like the Serpa or the Safariland ALS (which I have).  If I remember correctly Michigander is using the Safariland SLS which has a rotating hood instead of an automatic lock.

With the Serpa or ALS models if you have a bit of shirt stuck between the gun and interior of the holster and get the gun in far enough it will still lock into place.  With either of these systems it takes a relatively small amount of upward pressure on the gun to keep it from unlocking easily.

Bronson

A agree
I use the serpa with belt loop and have had this happen once when I was wearing loose clothing. I see this problem being corrected simply when you dress in the morning pick a holster that fits with your clothing, if you are wearing something loose that may get in the way of the serpa or other holster that is close to the body then maybe a drop leg or other style holser will work better.

[BTAvery]

I definately agree with the guy above me you need to pick a correct holster. I think once have I had my sweatshirt get in the way and all that required was a short redraw and moving of sweatshirt then reholstering. But I normally wear loose clothing but not like inches to long.

[Michigander]

Now that that other guy mentioned it do you carry with the paddle? Because paddles carry really friggen close to the body (after looking at mine really friggen close). I normally use the belt version which puts about 3 inches between my waist and where the gun actually sits.

3"? Is that a mid ride belt loop mount? Sounds like it would go a long ways towards fixing that particular problem.

Was the serpa you used the paddle style or belt mounted version? The serpa I use goes directly on the belt and I've not had an issue with the pistol and shirt fighting for holster real estate as of yet; granted I haven't really practiced stressful reholstering.  Just an observation.

Standard Sportster, comes with a paddle.

[BTAvery]

Its more like 2 inches and I got the Blackhawk cqc which comes with paddle and belt loop. I don't like the paddle feels weird the belt loop feels right.

[Small_Arms_Collector]

I used to think they were an okay budget choice, if not ideal, and certainly not worthy of all the trash talking they get. I always say I like to admit to having been wrong because it means I learned something, and this is no exception. I've discovered I don't like them at all.

Over the past couple says, I've had a borrowed M&P which I've been experimenting with, unloaded with a Serpa Sportster. I'm doing a lot of studying for state mechanics licenses, and every time I need to take a break, I've been drawing, dry firing, re-holstering, and generally trying to get a feel for it. 

3 times the M&P has become caught in the Serpa by my shirt tail in such a way that it makes the gun very difficult to get out. This I am guessing is less of an issue with different mounts, but I still don't like it. You could argue also that you simply have to be careful upon re-holstering. I don't like that concept, because there are many reported cases of re holstered handguns having to be re drawn because of an assailant getting back up after the defender thought they were down for good. This problem is non existent in my now over a year with my Safariland.

Once while doing a fairly fast draw I ended up with my finger in the trigger guard, with the gun pointed just barely past my leg. I do believe that in a high stress life and death situation, small little motor skills go straight out the window, and I now believe firmly that at least with some gun shapes, including this one, drawing fast from a Serpa could easily cost a user their knee cap.

While I still have yet to see an example of a verified real world case of a Serpa getting debris stuck behind the retention button in the course of real use, I nonetheless believe the other issues are serious enough that I can no longer recommend them. Not that I will argue with folks who use, like and trust them, but after experiencing this, I cannot endorse them at all. Safariland models can be had for as little as 20 dollars more, and that is now going to be my number one suggestion to people looking for retention. 

In continuing my quest for knowledge, I'd love to hear about it if Serpa users wish to tell me any opposing viewpoints.

All this can be solved with practice.  The shirt issue is simply solved by looking while re holstering, or simply pulling your shirt aside with your support hand.  The trigger finger problem is caused by a poor draw stroke, you are drawing with your finger bent, keep your finger flat against the side of the holster when drawing just as you would with the pistol, the pistol release will be hit automatically as your finger drags across it.  When drawing you should achieve a firing grip on the pistol anyway before drawing it from a holster, given that your finger is ending up in the trigger guard indicates that you are not.

[Small_Arms_Collector]

On the subject of having to redraw.  That sounds like inexperience to me why in the world would you reholster if theres any possiblity that my attacker is still alive i'm going to find cover and keep my firearm drawn and ready to shoot again. The only time that I would holster would be when the cops arrived or when someone else could watch the attacker with a firearm well I if needed help someone in need of medical attention.

What could lead to something happening is far less important than the fact it could happen.

Off the top of my head, a few reasons why someone might reholster are indeed inexperience, or perhaps that they need to keep their weapon secure. Perhaps to administer first aid. Perhaps to help facilitate driving. What if you're trying to stop someone from bleeding to death when the friends of the banger you shoot arrive to kill you?

That said, this particular issue may be more of an issue with the close to the body mounting bracket than an issue of the holster itself, however I still find that they are more problematic in this regard than any other holster I've ever used. The tight tolerances of moving parts, including the draw itself, strike me as less than appealing. That said, I may also have the same problems with many other kydex holsters. I just wouldn't know because I've only extensively used nylon, leather and Safariland. So take my opinions for what they are worth. 

You never ever attempt to give first aid.  First you are probably not an EMT, second this is a person who just moments ago was attacking you, hence why they now have bullet holes in them, why the hell would you risk getting close enough to help him?, particularly as you mentioned when you are unsure if he has accomplices in the area?  You also never leave the scene unless it is to dangerous to stay, so why would you be getting in to your car?

The correct procedure is to fire until the threat is stopped, then lower the pistol to high ready, and do a 360 scan for additional threats, then keep the threat covered at the high ready, or retention ready position until police can arrive, while keeping the threat covered you should move to better cover if available, continue scanning for threats.

[Bronson]

You never ever attempt to give first aid.  First you are probably not an EMT, second this is a person who just moments ago was attacking you, hence why they now have bullet holes in them, why the hell would you risk getting close enough to help him

Michigander never mentioned giving first aid to the attacker, only "giving first aid" could be a viable reason to reholster.  The attacker may have injured somebody in your own party or another innocent bystander....or you.

If you are aware of a law that requires someone to be an EMT to render first aid I would appreciate being directed to it.  I believe that under MI law I, persoanlly, am covered as I have been trained to the level of a medical first responder and have a degree as a physical therapist assistant which requires emergency medical education, both are positions in which I have "substantially met" the requirements for licensure even though I am licensed in neither.

MCL 333.16171

Under the circumstances and subject to the limitations stated in each case, the following individuals are not required to have a license issued under this article for practice of a health profession in this state:(a) A student in a health profession training program, which has been approved by the appropriate board, while performing the duties assigned in the course of training.

(b) An individual practicing a health profession in the discharge of official duties while in the military service of the United States, the United States public health service, the United States department of agriculture, or the United States veterans administration. The institution in which the individual practices shall report the name and address of the individual to the appropriate board within 30 days after the date of employment.

(c) An individual who by education, training, or experience substantially meets the requirements of this article for licensure while rendering medical care in a time of disaster or to an ill or injured individual at the scene of an emergency.

Bronson (who, in the right circumstances, would give first aid to the person who attacked me)

[BTAvery]

I mentioned first aid and I ment any bystander or someone of my own party. (Trust me that f er would bleed out before I adminstered any aid) According to michigan law if you do what you can and know you can't be charged its called the "good samaritian law".

now there is other things such as if the person is not unconsincous and there is someone of their party you must ask permission and explain what your trained in. If there is no one and they're unconsincous you are allowed to render what treatment you know.

For example I'm trained in CPR/AED for adult and child and CPR infant (you can't use AED on infant requires special AED) i'm also trained in awarness (or the one just above it) blood bourne pathogens, and i'm first aid certified. I can help to what I know and if a Para or EMT need help they can ask anyone but will look for someone with medical training. Thats why whenever I go out (in cargos (more often then not I wear cargos)) I carry a pair of gloves and a CPR mask in my pocket and if where i'm going I can carry I do that as well.

P.S. I'm not one of those guys that listens to the scanner then rushes out to a scene of an accident, but want to be prepared for any situation wether it be being attacked or witnessing a car accident. I take being a citizen of these United States as a honor we live in such a great country I think that as citizens theres so much we could do to help each other.

[BTAvery]

Read This One
Sorry I meant to check it but accidentaly hit post instead of review.

I mentioned first aid and I meant any bystander or someone of my own party. (Trust me that f er would bleed out before I administered any aid) According to Michigan law if you do what you can and know you can't be charged it’s called the "good Samaritan law".

now there is other things such as if the person is not unconscious and there is someone of their party you must ask permission and explain what your trained in. If there is no one and they're unconscious you are allowed to render what treatment you know.

For example I'm trained in CPR/AED for adult and child and CPR infant (you can't use AED on infant requires special AED) I’m also trained in awareness (or the one just above it) blood borne pathogens, and I’m first aid certified. I can help to what I know and if a Para or EMT need help they can ask anyone but will look for someone with medical training. That’s why whenever I go out (in cargos (more often than not I wear cargos)) I carry a pair of gloves and a CPR mask in my pocket and if where I’m going I can carry I do that as well.

P.S. I'm not one of those guys that listens to the scanner then rushes out to a scene of an accident, but want to be prepared for any situation whether it be being attacked or witnessing a car accident. I take being a citizen of these United States as a honor we live in such a great country I think that as citizens there’s so much we could do to help each other

[emt805]

If you are aware of a law that requires someone to be an EMT to render first aid I would appreciate being directed to it.  I believe that under MI law I, persoanlly, am covered as I have been trained to the level of a medical first responder and have a degree as a physical therapist assistant which requires emergency medical education, both are positions in which I have "substantially met" the requirements for licensure even though I am licensed in neither.
Bronson (who, in the right circumstances, would give first aid to the person who attacked me)

I am a Michigan licensed EMT, if we are not working and witness an injury or someone needing medical assistance we are not required to give aid by law unless it is during hours that we are on the clock as an EMT. If it is something on time off you are not required to help but if you do give aid you are required to stay on scene with the patiend until somone with equal or greater training arrives and takes over. The "good samaritian law" states in brief that you can not be held responsible for what someone with the same amount of training and mind set would give the same patient under the same conditions.
I usually carry a med bag in my truck but since I have started to carry I have increased my stock in quick clot should something happen.

[Michigander]

I believe that under MI law I, persoanlly, am covered as I have been trained to the level of a medical first responder

Same here, and yep, I meant first aid for someone other than an attacker. I suppose I might help an attacker, but it's certainly not something I've planned for.

Also, SAC, if you read my posts, you will note that I specified that I believe in a life and death confrontation where half seconds count tremendously, small motor skills cannot be counted on at all. Also, as I already mentioned, much of it has to do with the shape of the gun and trigger guard. But even still, under stress, I don't suggest counting on your finger to perform perfectly. More likely, you will instinctively be gripping a gun as tightly as possible.

[Bronson]

But even still, under stress, I don't suggest counting on your finger to perform perfectly. More likely, you will instinctively be gripping a gun as tightly as possible.

I can see that being a problem with the draw from any holster.  In that oh crap death grip on the gun moment as soon as the gun cleared any holster your finger could go into the trigger guard just as easily.

Bronson

[BTAvery]

If you are aware of a law that requires someone to be an EMT to render first aid I would appreciate being directed to it.  I believe that under MI law I, persoanlly, am covered as I have been trained to the level of a medical first responder and have a degree as a physical therapist assistant which requires emergency medical education, both are positions in which I have "substantially met" the requirements for licensure even though I am licensed in neither.
Bronson (who, in the right circumstances, would give first aid to the person who attacked me)

I am a Michigan licensed EMT, if we are not working and witness an injury or someone needing medical assistance we are not required to give aid by law unless it is during hours that we are on the clock as an EMT. If it is something on time off you are not required to help but if you do give aid you are required to stay on scene with the patiend until somone with equal or greater training arrives and takes over. The "good samaritian law" states in brief that you can not be held responsible for what someone with the same amount of training and mind set would give the same patient under the same conditions.
I usually carry a med bag in my truck but since I have started to carry I have increased my stock in quick clot should something happen.

Thanks I meant to mention the stay on scene but forgot it. If you really want to know all about the laws take a first aid/cpr course any good instructor will cover the laws.

[Michigander]

I can see that being a problem with the draw from any holster.  In that oh crap death grip on the gun moment as soon as the gun cleared any holster your finger could go into the trigger guard just as easily.

Bronson

It's true to an extent, but the problem with the Serpa is that there is a mechanism for your trigger finger to actuate prior to firing. Worse yet, the motion is some what similar to a trigger pull, in that the finger has to be pressed in. The difference here is fine motor skills vs gross motor skills.

Having a conditioned response in the form of well practiced gross motor skills is as a matter of absolute fact something most adults count on to stay alive each and every day as they drive their cars. Most don't know racing techniques, but they get the idea of foot on the brake when they're about to hit something. It needs to be the very same way with carrying a gun. A set of conditioned gross motor skills.

Certain aspects of pistol defensive use can add fine motor skills, most notably reloading. A lot of people in combat situations end up needing like 10 seconds+ to do what could have been a 1.5 second mag swap because of fear and adrenalin. With some guns and some hand shapes, I would argue that the Serpa platform offers a similarly dangerous problem, except worse because it's possible that the first shot you fire might hit a high displacement vein in your leg, rather than maybe scoring 8 or 15 hits on your attackers. 

I wish to again make it abundantly clear that I am not arguing with anyone who happily uses a Serpa. Certainly I didn't have these problems with Evil's XD45 in his serpa, at least not the trigger control issues and the way the gun draws. It is however a concern I now share with many others regarding the platform. Not really much else I can say on the matter that I haven't already brought up.

[Bronson]

the motion is some what similar to a trigger pull, in that the finger has to be pressed in.

I've stopped carrying with the Serpa because I like the Safariland better.  I wanted my lock release to be with the thumb since there's a good chance I'll have leather holster with a thumb-break...because I roll my own.  That being said when I was using the Serpa I found that it worked much more reliably if I did NOT make any extra effort to push the button.  I just gripped the gun with my finger alongside the holster, where it would be on any holster, and drew.  Just laying my finger on the button during the draw was all that was needed and indeed worked more effectively than attempting to push the button in any way.

Bronson

[emt805]

the motion is some what similar to a trigger pull, in that the finger has to be pressed in.

I've stopped carrying with the Serpa because I like the Safariland better.  I wanted my lock release to be with the thumb since there's a good chance I'll have leather holster with a thumb-break...because I roll my own.  That being said when I was using the Serpa I found that it worked much more reliably if I did NOT make any extra effort to push the button.  I just gripped the gun with my finger alongside the holster, where it would be on any holster, and drew.  Just laying my finger on the button during the draw was all that was needed and indeed worked more effectively than attempting to push the button in any way.
Bronson

I have to agree that it is just a swipe on the button as you motion to remove pistol from the holster, no extra steps or buttons to press just a natural fluent motion.

[BTAvery]

I see what the one guys talking about if you push the button it does actually make you want to put your finger into the trigger guard but with the brush the button draw it seemed to be fine.