Author Topic: If someone comes into my house?  (Read 10607 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BTAvery

  • Posts: 233
If someone comes into my house?
« on: October 16, 2010, 12:38:54 PM »
Ok not OC related but firearm related if someon breaks into my home can I shoot them or do I have to be threatened or breaking in is threat enough?

Offline mosnar87

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
  • First Name (Displayed): Ervin
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 03:04:37 PM »
Have you read this?

IMOP based on what I see there it would seem that all you would need to worry about are these three criteria:

1) Fear of Death.

2) Fear of Serious Bodily Injury.

3) Fear of Forcible Sexual Penetration.

I would think that a forcible entry would definitely fulfill (2) and probably (1) in the eyes of a “Reasonable Man”

IANAL
"I don't want to be someone that successfully defends himself with a pistol.  I want to be someone that never has to defend himself with a pistol."
-Bronson, 2013

"Its not what I do for a living, its that I want to keep doing it"
-Evil Creamsicle, 2010

Offline onnie0047@gmail.com

  • MOC Leadership
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
    • Randys Old Time Radio Shows
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2010, 03:39:18 PM »
780.951 Individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force; presumption; definitions.
Sec. 1.


1) Except as provided in subsection (2), it is a rebuttable presumption in a civil or criminal case that an individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force under section 2 of the self-defense act has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death of, sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if both of the following apply:

(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

(b) The individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force honestly and reasonably believes that the individual is engaging in conduct described in subdivision (a).

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if any of the following circumstances exist:

(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used, including an owner, lessee, or titleholder, has the legal right to be in the dwelling, business premises, or vehicle and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order, a probation order, or a parole order of no contact against that person.

(b) The individual removed or being removed from the dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle is a child or grandchild of, or is otherwise in the lawful custody of or under the lawful guardianship of, the individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used.

(c) The individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force is engaged in the commission of a crime or is using the dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle to further the commission of a crime.

(d) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is a peace officer who has entered or is attempting to enter a dwelling, business premises, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties in accordance with applicable law.

(e) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is the spouse or former spouse of the individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force, an individual with whom the individual using deadly force or other than deadly force has or had a dating relationship, an individual with whom the individual using deadly force or other than deadly force has had a child in common, or a resident or former resident of his or her household, and the individual using deadly force or other than deadly force has a prior history of domestic violence as the aggressor.

(3) As used in this section:

(a) "Domestic violence" means that term as defined in section 1 of 1978 PA 389, MCL 400.1501.

(b) "Business premises" means a building or other structure used for the transaction of business, including an appurtenant structure attached to that building or other structure.

(c) "Dwelling" means a structure or shelter that is used permanently or temporarily as a place of abode, including an appurtenant structure attached to that structure or shelter.

(d) "Law enforcement officer of a Michigan Indian tribal police force" means a regularly employed member of a police force of a Michigan Indian tribe who is appointed pursuant to former 25 CFR 12.100 to 12.103.

(e) "Michigan Indian tribe" means a federally recognized Indian tribe that has trust lands located within this state.

(f) "Peace officer" means any of the following:

(i) A regularly employed member of a law enforcement agency authorized and established pursuant to law, including common law, who is responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the general criminal laws of this state. Peace officer does not include a person serving solely because he or she occupies any other office or position.

(ii) A law enforcement officer of a Michigan Indian tribal police force.

(iii) The sergeant at arms or any assistant sergeant at arms of either house of the legislature who is commissioned as a police officer by that respective house of the legislature as provided by the legislative sergeant at arms police powers act, 2001 PA 185, MCL 4.381 to 4.382.

(iv) A law enforcement officer of a multicounty metropolitan district.

(v) A county prosecuting attorney's investigator sworn and fully empowered by the sheriff of that county.

(vi) Until December 31, 2007, a law enforcement officer of a school district in this state that has a membership of at least 20,000 pupils and that includes in its territory a city with a population of at least 180,000 as of the most recent federal decennial census.

(vii) A fire arson investigator from a fire department within a city with a population of not less than 750,000 who is sworn and fully empowered by the city chief of police.

(viii) A security employee employed by the state pursuant to section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

(ix) A motor carrier officer appointed pursuant to section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d.

(x) A police officer or public safety officer of a community college, college, or university who is authorized by the governing board of that community college, college, or university to enforce state law and the rules and ordinances of that community college, college, or university.

(g) "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport people or property.



History: 2006, Act 311, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006


© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan


I am not a Cop, nor a Lawyer, not even a Medical Doctor, but I did once play a Klingon at Universal Studios!

Offline BTAvery

  • Posts: 233
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2010, 05:07:00 PM »
Thanks guys what I was looking for was what the second guy posted.

Offline onnie0047@gmail.com

  • MOC Leadership
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
    • Randys Old Time Radio Shows
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2010, 05:41:29 PM »
your welcome!
I am not a Cop, nor a Lawyer, not even a Medical Doctor, but I did once play a Klingon at Universal Studios!

Offline kryptonian

  • Posts: 183
  • First Name (Displayed): dave
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2010, 06:04:09 PM »
it is advised that you say that you shot to STOP his action not to KILL
i don't fear the barking dog...i'm scared of the quiet dog

Offline NHCGRPR45

  • Posts: 130
  • Macomb Twp. MI
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2010, 04:59:41 AM »
agreed we always shoot center mass and shoot to stop the bad guy/gal from doing whatever it was to make us shoot him/her in the first place. whether they live or die is irrelevant! shoot to stop.

btw imo shoot to stop and shoot to kill mean pretty much the same thing however one sounds much more PC its one of those "from a certain point of view" things. 
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such goverment, and to provide new gaurds for their future security. United States Constitution.

Offline onnie0047@gmail.com

  • MOC Leadership
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
    • Randys Old Time Radio Shows
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2010, 04:42:25 PM »
My nephew a cop in Georgia and I were discussing 2 weeks ago a wedding about OCing and I was asking his opinion.  His was positive and had nothing against OCing.  Although he does stop people he see OCing, he said GA law is a bit different than here and they MUST show ID.  Not quite sure he is right from what I seen on the GA pages, but I was not going to challenge him there, I had nothing to back me up.

He asked me if I used my gun and killed someone to defend myself, what if ANYTHING would I say to the police officer investigating the shooting.  We were actually discussing what if it took more than 2 rounds to kill the intruder.  First thing he told me was NEVER talk to a police officer.  Second thing he said if I had to say something, and there was any question on how many rounds I shot, my answer was I shot until the threat was gone, then shut my mouth.

We had a great hour or so conversation, until his father came up to him and ask if he was carrying his service weapon, at which he said no, why?  Seems someone he danced with earlier was complaining that they FELT his weapon and it scared them.

First, he is a police officer!  Hello, IMO he has every right to carry his pistol 24/7 in his state or not!  Never know when some creep might have followed him.
Second, what they felt was his cell phone, quite a bit difference in size and weight!

I felt bad for the kid, been on the force for 3 years, seems to be a good cop!  My bother won’t tell me who complained, just said to let it go. 

Some people are IDIOTS!  Even in one’s family!
I am not a Cop, nor a Lawyer, not even a Medical Doctor, but I did once play a Klingon at Universal Studios!

Offline BTAvery

  • Posts: 233
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2010, 11:53:44 PM »
EVEN IN ONES OWN FAMILY really? Yeah I can definatly agree my sister was raised with no knowledge of guns so she thinks there the devil. (Not kidding) My Mom grew up shooting occasionally and my dad is a city boy and is like my sister.

Luckly I grew up in a town of 5,000 in the middle of no where and my Mother divorced and married a man that wasn't great but hunted till medical issues. None the less I thought for my self and discovered they were one of the greatest (and worst) tools created by man.

Well now that I rambled on and on does anyone know of an easier way to help educate family members because my sister and her husband (less anti-gun but definatly not pro) leave in a not great but not horrible part of a city and I would like them to have a way to protect themselves.

Offline BailEnforcer

  • Posts: 58
  • Facta Probant
    • Forfeiture Services
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 02:40:35 AM »
.../snip/...  does anyone know of an easier way to help educate family members ... /snip ...

I fired my first gun when I was 5 years old because my father; granted he was drunk at the time, thought I could handle it and I have been shooting since.

I personally took my daughter to the range when she was 8 years old and started her with a .22 rifle she is now 17 and a ten ringer from 25 feet with my HK .40 pistol.  Currently she’s at B.C.T.  And I am very proud of her and fully support her decision to follow in my foot steps and become an MP.

When she was young she often asked about my weapons and I thought it best to teach her then to respect them and how to use them. As well as what they where for. 

I found that it took the curiosity and mystery of firearms out of it for her.  By time she was 9 I believer I could leave a loaded handgun on the coffee table and she would not touch it.

I took my nephews to the range when they turned 13 and taught them how to safely handle and to respect a handgun.  At first my sisters where upset; but, they soon realized that the boys had changed and lost their infatuation with guns.  They stopped talking about them all the time and didn’t play with toy guns as often as they did before I took them shooting.

Some may not agree with my methods but I firmly believe that if you teach a child how to safely handle and to respect a firearm it will take the mystery out of them for most and they will respect a firearm more then if they are simply told don’t touch guns; guns are bad etc. 

Just my .02¢

The Patroit Act; Turning citizens into suspects since 2001!
-------------------------------------------------
I may not like what you have to say; but, I will defend to the death your right to say it!  Voltaier

Spec

  • Guest
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 09:59:37 PM »
We don't shoot to "kill" like most people think because then we are painted in a bad light. something like "We don't shoot to 'kill', We shoot to stay alive."

Offline Big Gay Al

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Rock Island Armory 1911A1 FS Tactical .45 ACP
    • Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
  • First Name (Displayed): Al
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2010, 05:36:08 PM »
Well, I think, now that I'm recovering from open heart surgery (quadruple bypass) a 4 year old coming at me with a popsicle stick might qualify as fear of imminent death, or great bodily injury. :)
Big Gay Al
Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols

Offline BTAvery

  • Posts: 233
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2010, 11:44:04 PM »
LMFAO I hope you recover fine.

Offline DonS

  • Posts: 5
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2010, 12:58:35 AM »
This directly applies to the "Castle Law"

Offline philipsteele

  • Posts: 11
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2011, 03:28:08 AM »
i agree with Mr.Onnie...it really true rules that will helpful for all newcomers....... ;)

Offline CV67PAT

  • MOC Charter Member
  • Posts: 2615
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2011, 03:02:41 PM »
...it really true rules that will helpful for all newcomers....

HUH???
Want to keep informed of events in your area? Go to http://www.miopencarry.org/update

Offline Big Gay Al

  • MOC Member
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • Rock Island Armory 1911A1 FS Tactical .45 ACP
    • Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
  • First Name (Displayed): Al
Re: If someone comes into my house?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2011, 09:07:27 AM »
...it really true rules that will helpful for all newcomers....

HUH???
You took the word right out of my keyboard. :)
Big Gay Al
Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols