CPL's Constitutional? Hardly

[CrossPistols]

   Most Veteran OC'ers here know my stance on the issue of the CPL's, but as I see we have many more Cherries on the tree of OC, so I figured I'd try to post a simple but direct argument on why I think it could be possible to Abolish CPL's & PFZ as well.
 
   National Level:  The 10th Amendment reads The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. This is my main argument that since the Bill of Rights specifically the 2nd Amend. states the right of the people to keep and bear (Own and Carry) the federal govt. has no say, and since it is enumerated it cannot be given to the States, for in it's wording is giving the power to the people directly, neither the state nor the Feds have authority.
   The 4th Amendment States that "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures...." This Amendment gives the people the right to walk down the street without having to answer to the Law (Govt.) without Reasonable Articulate Suspicion (RAS). If a gun is not considered concealed in a house, then it's not in a coat, nor in a Car which are all Affects, as well as Private Property. I know what your going to say the coat and car are in public, well you could argue that a House touches public roadways. To be secure in your House is to be secure in your car, or person.
   Now on a State level. Article 1 section 6 reads every person shall have the right to keep and bear arms for defense of self & state. The argument on the car is it is a privilege to drive but, is it? Remember the 9th Amend. "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. I could go as far as to say I have a right to a car, Can any one show me legislation stating who can own or not own a car. I can buy a car even if I don't have a license. Now driving there is a law on driving but A Person by Man, or law cannot lose a right given to him by Being Born with certain unalienable rights. An Arm is enumerated there fore it cannot be regulated, for any regulation would be an infringement. A coat to keep warm falls under the right to keep warm (The 9th). I can carry openly, but Not if it's cold, or I'm driving Unless I have a CPL.
   I do not trade the RTKB for the warmth of a coat, nor do I trade my RTKB arms for a privilege (to drive) my car. An Person has the right to self defense, in a car, in a coat on, and An 18 tr old has the same rights regardless if he's 21 (CPL age requirement) What the Hell these are All violations of the 2nd, 4th, 9th, & 10th.   
   I can argue this with little to no money, but I can't challenge it in court. Together through Numbers, and a collective fund I think we could Abolish these CPL's, and PFZ's.  Please give me your opinion.

[BTAvery]

Pretty much spot on argument. But once something is in place its so much harder to remove (talking about federal gun laws). But yes the federal government is unconstituitional on this subject. I think that everything besides driving should be included (legally speaking) because we have a right to travel but not to use an automobile to do it and in that case you would need a license.

[CrossPistols]

I agree with you Avery, thou It would be easier to pass a state law or Amendment to make a car or driving a right than it would be to abolish the CPL. Also I'd argue that in today's world a car is just as important as a horse was back in the day. Remember they hanged people for horse thievery. 

[Super Trucker]

I think that sounds great, what is the first step to make it work?

I have been reading over on MGO about doing away with PFZ's and it doesn't seem like 3 people can all agree on the same idea, let alone the numbers that would be needed for this sort of thing to happen. I am all ears if there are ideas on how to go about this and to get the numbers we would need.

[CV67PAT]

That's because MGO is filled with FUDDs.

[CrossPistols]

I suppose the first step is to build a consensus among our ranks (MOC), get the number of members/people who agree up pretty high. Then draft a petition and/or Bill.  It would help to sign on a Congressman to help the process along....Hmm that last might be a Doozy.

[BTAvery]

The last would be hard but not that hard you go to some middle of no where congressmen throw a huge smire campaign that he wants every gun out there destroyed and a law banning all guns and their usage. Then we offer him to sign this and that we would then campaign for him and change our position.  (basic politics 101) Remember you need only sway 4% of the population on election day and you win.

[hamaneggs]

True,Unconstitutional!

[CrossPistols]

Let's see at age 18 I have a Michigan constitutional right to defend myself, unless I wear a coat or drive a car. So my rights end at my car door, and when it gets cold out. Whats that? I can get a CPL which allows me to do this, but only when I'm 21, and then if I have enough money.  The way i see it, if I can exercise the first Amendment any where any time with out Age limit, or w/o any license then I should be allowed to exercise  the 2nd.  as well.

[Super Trucker]

Let's see at age 18 I have a Michigan constitutional right to defend myself, unless I wear a coat or drive a car. So my rights end at my car door, and when it gets cold out. Whats that? I can get a CPL which allows me to do this, but only when I'm 21, and then if I have enough money.  The way i see it, if I can exercise the first Amendment any where any time with out Age limit, or w/o any license then I should be allowed to exercise  the 2nd.  as well.

All vaild points.

[BTAvery]

Let's see at age 18 I have a Michigan constitutional right to defend myself, unless I wear a coat or drive a car. So my rights end at my car door, and when it gets cold out. Whats that? I can get a CPL which allows me to do this, but only when I'm 21, and then if I have enough money.  The way i see it, if I can exercise the first Amendment any where any time with out Age limit, or w/o any license then I should be allowed to exercise  the 2nd.  as well.

I would argue any age limit, 18 is young enough. Though I think there should be a program allowing people >16 and <18 to be allowed to purchase and carry.
If you can operate a deadly weapon why can't you carry one? I would agree though that most >16 and <18 shouldn't be allowed to carry. I think a good way to solve this if your >16 and <18 you can carry with a parent or legal guardian but that’s the only time you can carry maybe have something like a graduated license system like driving? After a year and a said number of hours they can carry by themselves but not at high school.
Kids like to pick on and wind each other up, it takes ALOT to get me mad but it can happen and of the 10ish times in my life where I was at the point of throwing a punch (I didn't, I have never thrown a punch in anger) about 5 were at my school.

But I do agree with everything else the idea that because I get into a car (privilege at 16 or 18) I lose my 2nd amendment right or because it’s cold out I can't protect myself who makes such arbitrary requirements?

[CrossPistols]

   I disagree on the age limit.  Ultimately it comes down to parental guidance,  but By your argument, if we allow the age decision then next they (Govt.) will say open, and concealed doesn't appear in the 2nd so we can regulate that as well, same as age. I know it sounds radical to have no age limit, but the price of true freedom, is not only respect, but  also the possibility of ignorant people carrying irresponsibly as well as us carrying responsibly. It' either all or none...A man who is willing to give up a certain amount of freedom for a little security, Deserves, and receives neither.    Side Note: In Michigan a child can carry (Pistol/Long arm) on private/public as long as a parent or 18 yr old is in immediate supervision.

[BTAvery]

Yep you pulled the Ben Franklin card "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." I will say you have me beat but as partially arbitrary as it is I still support the 18 year old age limit. I don't trust kids not to do something stupid more importantly I don't trust parents to teach their kids. Now if we had every few years you had to take a firearm safety and laws relating to them class I would completely agree to the no age limit. But as the current system needs reform before we incorporate laws that have such a big impact.
I have no clue your background but (I graduated this year but its about to be last in a couple days) as of now I wouldn't trust half my graduating class with a firearm. By the way my graduating class was 250ish and we live in a farm/tourist town. Opening day was either scheduled off or pretty much 60% of students were not expected to attend (I'm talking in the high school).

Now all that being said you can always have some good apples
 

[CrossPistols]

BT don't get me wrong My intentions are not to prove you wrong, or right when it come to your Opinion, you are entitled to your opinion what ever it may be. I am here to sway you to my way of thinking, as well as many others in MOC when it comes to the Constitution. I understand the total lack of common sense in many Parent and Kids today, but to include me, my child and others in the same category is to assume we are all incompetent, and need Govt. to babysit. I taught my son to use a fire arm for hunting, and protection,  he does not carry unless I am present, but to limit my rights based on Majority rule is to rule as  a Socialist.  The Constitution must remain Consistent, we must be as one when it come to the meaning, even if you or I do not agree 100%. Lets both agree in public that there are no age minimums, or limits, then in Private we can differ on the matter. For us to be divided when it comes to our stand on the issue, is to doom us all to fail.   

[BTAvery]

Oh I understand your not trying to force your view and change my opinion but I love that you use ben franklin card it happens to be one of my favorites. I agree though no age limit is what it should be but with that should come reform just like every other issue there needs to be reform.