Open Carry in MI PFZ's vs Federal law ?

[jsxtreme]

Hello,

My name is Justin. Some of you might know me from over on the MI gun owners forum.


The question I have, is how is it that open carrying in PFZ's with a CPL legal, with the Gun free school zones act of 1990? It's this section that allows us to OC in school property with a CPL, correct?

if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

[venator]

Yes, but a non-CPL holder can be within the 1000 ft zone as well because the state does a background check when you register a handgun.  A non CPL holder carrying a long gun may not be covered.

[CV67PAT]

Yes, but a non-CPL holder can be within the 1000 ft zone as well because the state does a background check when you register a handgun.  A non CPL holder carrying a long gun may not be covered.

Would a non-CPL holder carrying a shotgun on school property have to be aware that there is a law prohibiting it in order to be charge with a crime?

[DetroitBiker]

Hello,

My name is Justin. Some of you might know me from over on the MI gun owners forum.


The question I have, is how is it that open carrying in PFZ's with a CPL legal, with the Gun free school zones act of 1990? It's this section that allows us to OC in school property with a CPL, correct?

if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

Hi justin,welcome to MOC
Its my understanding that the  Michigan  Concealed Pistol Permit is your license issued by the State verifing that the holder is qualified.
The Pistol free zones listed on the CPL  says the holder cannot carry concealed on those locations.
And the word CONCEALED is the magic word, the loop hole is that  it doesn`t mention anything about Open carry of a pistol.

 The long gun issue is different IMO, Because the CPL  is specificly for Handguns,or  firearms that fall under the handgun definition under michigan gun laws.

[TheQ]

Would a non-CPL holder carrying a shotgun on school property have to be aware that there is a law prohibiting it in order to be charge with a crime?

Ignorantia juris non excusat

[BTAvery]

Would a non-CPL holder carrying a shotgun on school property have to be aware that there is a law prohibiting it in order to be charge with a crime?

Ignorantia juris non excusat

+1 I had to click the link and another +1 for making it a link

[CV67PAT]

Would a non-CPL holder carrying a shotgun on school property have to be aware that there is a law prohibiting it in order to be charge with a crime?

Ignorantia juris non excusat

but venalator said it is for lil freak

[TheQ]

but venalator said it is for lil freak

Sigh -- read this.

[venator]

Would a non-CPL holder carrying a shotgun on school property have to be aware that there is a law prohibiting it in order to be charge with a crime?

Ignorantia juris non excusat

but venalator said it is for lil freak

Did I?  I mentioned the federal law which you are free to pursue.  Please don't put words in my mouth.

[CV67PAT]

Would a non-CPL holder carrying a shotgun on school property have to be aware that there is a law prohibiting it in order to be charge with a crime?

Ignorantia juris non excusat

but venalator said it is for lil freak

Did I?  I mentioned the federal law which you are free to pursue.  Please don't put words in my mouth.

It may have been a pistol brought the boA robbers down but think how much faster it could have ended with a long gun.  The people at the library is the same response that was given right before oc a was so accepted today.

The library incident was different, because someone decided to take a shotgun into a place where they scared the crap out of people, the police were called, insted of standing his ground and sticking up for what he believed  was so sure to be legal,He left with his tail between his legs. And the end result was a artical in the paper makeing him look like a nut job with a gun terrorizing the public.

Now, which senario sounds better to the Open Carry disscusion around the water coolers of the every day John Q Public

Lets not make statements based on a news paper article.  There is supposed to be a video of this event which may clarify things.  Based on what I have been told, no one was terrorized.  In fact one of the people there talked with Tyler and asked what he was carrying.  He was interested in a shotgun and went on line to find more info.

Only a security guard was on scene and if police arrived it was after Tyler left.  The security explained to the staff member that OC of a long gun was legal and said the preemption applied.  The staff member was the one that was adamant about kicking out Tyler and said she didn't care about the law.  Tyler then left after giving the woman a brochure on OC.

Tyler has gone to this library to use their computers in the past.

If there is any variance from what I have been told, the video and other first party witness statements will revel them.

There is no sign regarding firearms on the door.

In regards to school property.  This is an issue that is being looked into.  I do know that the library district has several branches and I doubt all are school property.  Also to be in violation of the gun free zone a person has to know the place is a school/property.  Since this was not know by Tyler or for that matter by anyone in MOC, Inc I don't think a charge would be appropriate.

[TheQ]

Also to be in violation of the gun free zone a person has to know the place is a school/property.  Since this was not know by Tyler or for that matter by anyone in MOC, Inc I don't think a charge would be appropriate.

Mistake of law is not an excuse to the law.  Mistake of fact is.

[CV67PAT]

Also to be in violation of the gun free zone a person has to know the place is a school/property.  Since this was not know by Tyler or for that matter by anyone in MOC, Inc I don't think a charge would be appropriate.

Mistake of law is not an excuse to the law.  Mistake of fact is.

But V says it is. Who you gonna believe? The godfather or kinki winki?

[TheQ]

But V says it is. Who you gonna believe? The godfather or kinki winki?

Ownership and title of the Library would count as a mistake of fact.  Have you read the post I referred you to yet in the other thread?

[CV67PAT]

But V says it is. Who you gonna believe? The godfather or kinki winki?

Ownership and title of the Library would count as a mistake of fact.  Have you read the post I referred you to yet in the other thread?

how is it a mistake of fact? who made the mistake?

[venator]

but venalator said it is for lil freak

I said "I think" which means it's my opinion, nothing more.  Only an idiot would construe that to be a fact of law.

[wardog6t]

but venalator said it is for lil freak

I said "I think" which means it's my opinion, nothing more.  Only an idiot would construe that to be a fact of law.

LoL lets hope Bubba in county doesnt make a mistake...I might suggest the Freak find a recruiter fast...Hmmmmm

[CV67PAT]

but venalator said it is for lil freak

I said "I think" which means it's my opinion, nothing more.  Only an idiot would construe that to be a fact of law.

There seems to be a lot of idiots, as you call them, that construe what you "think" as fact.

[wardog6t]

Theres a jail house lawyer in every crowd. Problem is, in most cases these lawyers havent been to jail...

[venator]

Theres a jail house lawyer in every crowd. Problem is, in most cases these lawyers havent been to jail...

In most case they haven't been to jail

[CV67PAT]

Theres a jail house lawyer in every crowd. Problem is, in most cases these lawyers havent been to jail...

In most case they haven't been to jail

YET

[venator]

Theres a jail house lawyer in every crowd. Problem is, in most cases these lawyers havent been to jail...

In most case they haven't been to jail

YET

Oh I've been.

[TheQ]

Theres a jail house lawyer in every crowd. Problem is, in most cases these lawyers havent been to jail...

In most case they haven't been to jail

YET

I've been booked and criminally fingerprinted, does that count?

[wardog6t]

Unless you are in the Orange suit facing the judge on a video camera for your arraignment. You havent been to jail! Therefore your jail house doctrine is not a qualiying degree... Furthermore if you have not taken the bar, your opinion of the law is just that...Ignorance of the law which is stated in the case of law is no excuse to violate the law. Which in most cases in which your plee is to that effect is the first thing out of the Judges mouth. To attempt to cop a plee of stupidy or ignorance in a firearms related charge especially in a open carry case is even more reason for the court to slam you with the maximum sentance.

[jsxtreme]

but venalator said it is for lil freak

Sigh -- read this.

I don't have permission to read that

[jsxtreme]

Thanks for the..... help? Nevermind I guess I'll figure it out on my own.

[wardog6t]

Hello,

My name is Justin. Some of you might know me from over on the MI gun owners forum.


The question I have, is how is it that open carrying in PFZ's with a CPL legal, with the Gun free school zones act of 1990? It's this section that allows us to OC in school property with a CPL, correct?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Correct! You must have a CPL to open carry on school premises. Make Damn sure your firearm is in plain site OPEN!

[BTAvery]

Hello,

My name is Justin. Some of you might know me from over on the MI gun owners forum.


The question I have, is how is it that open carrying in PFZ's with a CPL legal, with the Gun free school zones act of 1990? It's this section that allows us to OC in school property with a CPL, correct?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

Correct! You must have a CPL to open carry on school premises. Make Damn sure your firearm is in plain site OPEN!

I read that and from how I see it anyone that has been given a purchase license should be able to carry on school property.

[wardog6t]

In our State. You can "Open Carry"

[Bronson]

I read that and from how I see it anyone that has been given a purchase license should be able to carry on school property.

That would cover you for the Federal law but Michigan law says you must have a CPL in order to carry on school property, with a different Michigan law which forbids concealed carry on school property.  So, no concealed carry on school property and OC is only allowed with a CPL, per MI law.

28.425o prohibits concealed carry on school property (edited for relevance):

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

750.237a prohibits weapon possession on school property without a concealed weapon license (edited for relevance):

750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.

Sec. 237a.

(1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

So no CPL = no possession on school property.  The MI License to Purchase/Possess would only allow you to OC in the Federal 1000 ft. zone but not on school property.

Clear as mud?

Bronson

[BTAvery]

Thank you bronson I didn't intend on ocing but the knowledge is useful.

[venator]

SCHOOL ZONE.--
<< 18 USCA § 922 >>
  (1) IN GENERAL.--Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end
the following new subsection:

 "(q)(1)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the
individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

"(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to the possession of a firearm--
 
 "(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
 
 "(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school
zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political
subdivision requires that, before an individual obtain such a license, the law enforcement
authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to
receive the license;

One could argue that one would have to know a place was a school in order to be in violation.

One could argue that a purchase permit is a license to possess a firearm (since the element for the exemption is a background check.).

In this particular instance there is an argument that a public library supported by municipal funds would qualify as a school (regardless of the claimed ownership of the property.  Research the definition of a school zone in both state and federal laws).