Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
Open Carry Specific => OC Experiences => Topic started by: Xpiatio on July 09, 2014, 09:40:33 PM
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All was going good since I started open carrying at Meijer many months back. Today was the first bad experience due to a customer and not the store employees. I peered down at my grocery list to see what was next to get. From the side of my eye I see a guy non-chalantly walking down the aisle. He body language did give off any warning signs. As he approached me and passed me, he said "Give me your gun". Two steps further he laughs and says "whatever" and turns down the next aisle. I know you guys are going to bring up situational awareness, tape recorder, and rentention holster. As he walked away, all I could think of was: wow, what a dumb mf-er. I know so many people that would have knocked you out. But we all know that hindsight is 20/20. So a couple things I will modify:
1. ALS holster instead of my serpa. the button to release on my Serpa is right on the outside. easy to press and easy to discharge by someone grabbing for the gun.
2. Better recorder that goes around my neck when I don't have a chest pocket on my shirt.
3. Get a better handle as to how close I allow people to get.
So I extend out a question: what would you have done in a similar situation?
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Head on a swivel. Even when glancing at list, phone, etc.
Response...
Turn, hand on grip, "come and take it."
Body language don't mean anything... watch the hands.
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Head on a swivel. Even when glancing at list, phone, etc.
Response...
Turn, hand on grip, "come and take it."
Body language don't mean anything... watch the hands.
Will definitely take these into consideration. Thank you
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Of the four words that would increase my heart rate, one of them would be "ex-wife."
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You are correct, though, in using this to reevaluate your carry gear, situational awareness, and ready response(s).
I know a guy who used to carry a revolver and nothing else. No back-up, no reload. He was one of those guys who said, "If I can't get it done in six rounds, I deserve what I get." Until he was in a multi-threat situation one night. Scared him sh*tless. He ditched the revolver in favor of a hi-cap semi-auto and two spare mags. Sometimes it's not until one is actually confronted with a situation that one realistically evaluates things.
I try to think through a lot of scenarios in my mind, including ones where I am in my car.
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Of the four words that would increase my heart rate, one of them would be "ex-wife."
3 of them would be ex-wife for me.
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Response...
Turn, hand on grip, "come and take it."
Is putting your hand on the grip considered "brandishing?"
Of the four words that would increase my heart rate, one of them would be "ex-wife."
And increase my blood pressure! Many years ago I was in the hospital. My blood pressure was 120/70 every reading for 3 days. Then it turned up 170/125. The nurse asks, "What happened." I was honest and told her, "I talked to my wife on the phone 20 minutes ago." :o
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Is putting your hand on the grip considered "brandishing?"
No. It is a defense posture. Increased gun retention.
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No. It is a defense posture. Increased gun retention.
Good point. :)
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Head on a swivel. Even when glancing at list, phone, etc.
Response...
Turn, hand on grip, "come and take it."
Body language don't mean anything... watch the hands.
No. It is a defense posture. Increased gun retention.
Transition to a Weaver stance too. Better defensive base, shields the firearm from the threat, and obscures the fact that your hand is now on the firearm.
ALS, Serpa, or traditional thumb break. If someone knows how to defeat a retention device in a gun grab, they'll likely know all three. However, my assumption is the people with the retention knowledge aren't going for a gun grab. Their assumption will be that I only carry one.
Carry a BUG, never enter condition white when in public.
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All was going good since I started open carrying at Meijer many months back. Today was the first bad experience due to a customer and not the store employees. I peered down at my grocery list to see what was next to get. From the side of my eye I see a guy non-chalantly walking down the aisle. He body language did give off any warning signs. As he approached me and passed me, he said "Give me your gun". Two steps further he laughs and says "whatever" and turns down the next aisle. I know you guys are going to bring up situational awareness, tape recorder, and rentention holster. As he walked away, all I could think of was: wow, what a dumb mf-er. I know so many people that would have knocked you out. But we all know that hindsight is 20/20. So a couple things I will modify:
1. ALS holster instead of my serpa. the button to release on my Serpa is right on the outside. easy to press and easy to discharge by someone grabbing for the gun.
2. Better recorder that goes around my neck when I don't have a chest pocket on my shirt.
3. Get a better handle as to how close I allow people to get.
So I extend out a question: what would you have done in a similar situation?
Congrats on your choice of an ALS. I think you will be happy with your choice. In addition to the actual ALS holster research and consider buying the "ALS guard" add-on. PM me if you are having difficulties finding it online. This will help provide additional retention.
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Carry a BUG, never enter condition white when in public.
Condition white?
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As far as Brandishing, read the language proposed in HB 5091/5092.
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Condition white?
From jeff cooper's wiki
Combat Mindset and the Cooper Color Code[edit]
The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5]
The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.[citation needed]
White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person" - 'X' has happened, the fight is on.
The USMC uses condition Black, although it was not originally part of Cooper's Color Code. Condition Black: Catastrophic breakdown of mental and physical performance. Usually over 175 heartbeats per minute, increased heart rate becomes counter productive. May have stopped thinking correctly. This can happen when going from Condition White or Yellow immediately to Condition Red.
In short, the Color Code helps you "think" in a fight. As the level of danger increases, your willingness to take certain actions increases. If you ever do go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been made (your "mental trigger" has been tripped).
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I likely would have said "That would have been the worst mistake of your life" and stared him down.
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Head on a swivel. Even when glancing at list, phone, etc.
Response...
Turn, hand on grip, "come and take it."
Body language don't mean anything... watch the hands.
As the law is now, he could have been charged with brandishing if he had done that, no ?
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As the law is now, he could have been charged with brandishing if he had done that, no ?
You could be charged with anything for any reason but the charge sticking is another thing.
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As the law is now, he could have been charged with brandishing if he had done that, no ?
There is an exemption for SD. Question to a jury would be: did you honestly and reasonably feel you were in danger of death or great bodily harm?
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There is an exemption for SD. Question to a jury would be: did you honestly and reasonably feel you were in danger of death or great bodily harm?
if somone says gimme your gun, i am in danger. defensive measures will be taken
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if somone says gimme your gun, i am in danger. defensive measures will be taken
You may honestly feel that way. It may be up to a jury to decide if that belief was "reasonable".