Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
General Category => Latest News Stories => Topic started by: Xpiatio on June 02, 2015, 06:00:13 PM
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A judge said a Grand Rapids police officer acted lawfully when he stopped and briefly detained a man openly carrying a holstered firearm.
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/06/judge_backs_grand_rapids_polic.html
From the article:
Deffert's behavior was not consistent with my experience with open carry advocates,' similarly opined that Plaintiff's behavior was instead 'more consistent with tactical preparedness for unlawful purposes
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Definite win for police state -- badges allow you to draw a gun on a peaceful person.
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Tactical preparedness for unlawful purposes? What?
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I guess we can expect swatting in stores now.
Quick question out of ignorance. The recent case ruling from the 6th circuit court seems to conflict with the ruling from this case. With the seemingly conflicting rulings, what can we take away from the Deffert case ruling?
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I guess we can expect swatting in stores now.
Quick question out of ignorance. The recent case ruling from the 6th circuit court seems to conflict with the ruling from this case. With the seemingly conflicting rulings, what can we take away from the Deffert case ruling?
That this judge apparently can't read. The case from the 6th circuit that you mentioned was cited by this judge.
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Tactical preparedness for unlawful purposes? What?
Didn't ya know that terrorists always walk around open carrying sidearms and singing loudly to attract attention to themselves?
The judge knows it's true because a cop said it under oath. (or maybe a cop's lawyer said it and it sounded good?)
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Definite win for police state -- badges allow you to draw a gun on a peaceful person.
Agreed. This is a sad day for all of us. Officer Moe's actions on the video demonstrate to me that he has no respect for a law abiding citizen. Sigh.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/06/02/if-you-openly-carry-a-gun-dont-do-it-while-loudly-singing-hakuna-matata/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp-content/uploads/sites/14/2015/06/DeffertvMoe.pdf
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Anyone up for an open carry barbershop quartet?
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Agreed. This is a sad day for all of us. Officer Moe's actions on the video demonstrate to me that he has no respect for a law abiding citizen. Sigh.
Or, to phrase it gently, as if one cop were talking about another cop:
Sgt. LaBrecque wrote a memorandum to Captain Pete McWatters, Officer Moe’s commander, recommending that Officer Moe "would benefit from some additional training in handling ‘open carry’ issues”
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Johann Deffert has posted the following to the MOC fb page. https://www.facebook.com/groups/MichiganOpenCarry/ Since I know some here don't visit there, I thought I'd cross-post it here.
As many of you know I am appealing my case Deffert v. Moe. If you could help me with some support that would be very much appreciated. My case set a very dangerous precedent. We must uphold out right to open carry without bigotry from local police departments. Thank you for your support.
Here's the link to the Johann Deffert legal fund if any of you would like to contribute.
http://www.gofundme.com/w3n4h8
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Thanks Dan.
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So, a month ago, the NRA was helping...
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/06/nra_offers_help_in_appeal_of_o.html
And now, somebody on OCDO says Deffert is dropping the appeal for lack of funds???
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?130244-Federal-Court-decision-allows-detention-for-open-carry-This-must-be-countered&p=2150390&viewfull=1#post2150390
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Hadn't heard that Deffert is dropping the appeal. Do I get my GoFundMe money back?
The NRA story was incorrect. The person that wrote that in the news article was wrong. Apparently they never said they were going to financially assist.
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So, what sort of 'help' was NRA offering, a staff attorney to assist or replace Deffert's counsel?
Hopefully the OCDO post was inaccurate too.
Earlier this week, the GoFundMe page was still being updated.
http://www.gofundme.com/w3n4h8
Thursday, Steve Dolan was on At Odds, came on at 34 minutes.
Talks about Deffert at 51 minutes.
Compares Deffert case to Northrup case in Sixth Circuit.
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What I don't get, is that the Deffert case is being dropped because Northrup established the precedent back in May, yet Deffert lost after Northrup won, even though he cited Northrup as a late appearing precedent.
The timetable is kind of sad:
May, 6th Circuit declares that lawful OC is not grounds for any interference with the OCer.
http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/15a0092p-06.pdf
Deffert asks Judge Neff to use Northrup as controlling precedent.
June, Neff decides against Deffert.
Deffert declares it will be fought in the 6th Circuit, which should slap Neff silly for ignoring their precedent.
A GofundMe is launched to finance the appeal.
July, Deffert's attorney says on talk radio that Deffert chose not to appeal, due to the fact that we already won in Northrup and the loss in Deffert doesn't hurt anybody's rights going forward, so the only gain in appealing would be to watch the 6th Circuit play Hackey-Sack with Neff's professional reputation. But all that was known back in June before the GoFundMe project was launched.
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GoFundMe doesn't work like Kickstarter where the funding doesn't get charged and distributed unless the recipient reaches his goal, GoFundMe charges right away. My charge card was charged $100 back on June 10. Will I get the money back? One guy contributed $1,000! Will he get his money back?
People are still contributing to the campaign, one guy just nine hours ago. Something isn't right here.
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And the appeal doesn't seem like a total slam-dunk to me.
The one thing a trial judge has going for her is that she heard the testimony and saw the evidence.
Appeals courts are very reluctant to mess with the trial court's findings of fact, even though in this case it appears that Neff accepted every word out of Moe's mouth as pure fact and dismissed every piece of evidence Steve presented as not credible.
She found that the facts showed Deffert to be dangerously loony-toony. In the face of that, can you bring out the video evidence and convince the circuit court of appeals that it's Neff who was f**king nuts, not Deffert?
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Folks listen to the at odds show titled 'Attorney Steve Dulan, Independence day'
http://atoddsshow.com
In it you will hear Steve Dulan say that his client, Johann has decided not to move forward with the appeal.
Take that for what it is, his lawyer and the NRA's top lawyer in MI. (Mr. Dulan) either making a huge error on the air, or (more likely) repeating what his client has told him. Or I'm just hearing things that aren't there???
Listen for yourself & make your own judgements.
Listen to the whole show to be entertained - or go directly to the 51:00 minute mark. ;)
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I just messaged Johann. He said that he isn't going to appeal and he is going to keep the money we've donated for his appeal and pay back MCRGO.
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I just messaged Johann. He said that he isn't going to appeal and he is going to keep the money we've donated for his appeal and pay back MCRGO.
So now we know - the ruling by Judge Neff stands & MCRGO gets the $2k+ To cover their cost (Mr. Dulan is also board member there). So basically, it's open season on open carriers for the time being in the W. MI Federal district.
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I will add (not bashing)- it would have been nice if Johann would have stated clearly that: if the money he asked for $5,000 wasn't given by (x) time, that he would then drop the appeal & use it to pay back MCRGO.
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Yep, especially since MCRGO is apparently so flush with money that they can afford to pay their officers a salary.
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So basically, it's open season on open carriers for the time being in the 6th Federal district.
Did you mean Western District of Michigan?
If and only if you get a judge like Neff who is willing to grasp at any claim that the open carrier was doing something extraordinarily which would cause any reasonable cop to detain them.
Otherwise, the 6th Circuit ruling in Northrup controls, which says it is not open season on a guy walking his wife and their poodle just because he happens to be lawfully OCing.
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Did you mean Western District of Michigan?
If and only if you get a judge like Neff who is willing to grasp at any claim that the open carrier was doing something extraordinarily which would cause any reasonable cop to detain them.
Otherwise, the 6th Circuit ruling in Northrup controls, which says it is not open season on a guy walking his wife and their poodle just because he happens to be lawfully OCing.
Sorry - yes at this time this case (should) only affect the W. District of MI.
I would hope you are right. :) However knowing what I do about police and the prosecutors (that work for them, instead of Justice), I will say that police will go with the ruling that suits them the best: judge Neffs ruling.
We have two ruling from the same circuit that conflict with each other - thus leaving a pick & choose option open for prosecutors...never a good thing in my opinion. :(
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I don't think it even effects our district as precedent.
Maybe as a road map to other judges who want to ignore the 6th Circuit precedent set in Northrup the way Neff did...
But as precedent, the 6th circuit court of appeals ruling overrides anything the district courts within the circuit have done.
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This pisses me off. I donated money towards an appeal even though I do not like Dulan.
I have sworn not to do anything to fund MCRGO because they routinely back bad legislation and I do not believe they remotely share my interests.
I feel cheated, robbed if you will, and this makes me very shy about supporting another case in this manner. In fact I do not think I will, I will no only give to MGO and MOC's legal funds where there will have to be accountability for the moneys use.
I also think the 6th should give Neff a kicking, it needs to happen every now and then to keep activist judges in line.
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I also think the 6th should give Neff a kicking, it needs to happen every now and then to keep activist judges in line.
Several people gave an overpriced brick of .22s, or in one man's case 20 bricks, so see this though.
I suspect some of them want to see GR and Moe held accountable.
I also suspect the majority of the donors want to see Neff get b***h-slapped in a published appellate opinion. I'd be quite unhappy if I paid $1000 for that and didn't get to watch it.
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I am also pissed my $100 will go to MCRGO.
Is it too late to dispute a credit card charge?
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Is it too late to dispute a credit card charge?
I'm wondering the same thing. Deffert's not using the money he was generously given for what he claimed it would be used, and is instead using it to pay off his personal legal fees to MCRGO (if I'm understanding the situation correctly). Regardless of a person's feelings toward MCRGO, that just strikes me as wrong.
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I suppose he could be sued for breach of contract. The money was donated for a specific purpose. In accepting that donation he agreed to be bound to using it for that purpose.
It's no different than if you donated to the MOC legal fund and we used it to buy a weekend get-away for BoD members (or even tri-folds).
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I am also pissed my $100 will go to MCRGO.
Is it too late to dispute a credit card charge?
That may be a viable avenue of redress available to people who feel wronged. You generally have 69-90 days to dispute a charge.
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I'm wondering the same thing. Deffert's not using the money he was generously given for what he claimed it would be used, and is instead using it to pay off his personal legal fees to MCRGO (if I'm understanding the situation correctly). Regardless of a person's feelings toward MCRGO, that just strikes me as wrong.
I hadn't thought about it that way, but if the donations are being used to repay personal debt, then it's no different from having a fundraiser for a specific purpose and then diverting the proceeds to pay down your own mortgage.
I guess it would depend on whether Johann actually owes MCRGO money, or if they donated to his court battle and he's returning the favor by taking funds raised for a defunct charitable purpose and giving them to MCRGO for another charitable purpose.
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Johann told me that the money is being used to repay debts. A debt to MCRGO for fronting the money for the case, and a debt to Steve. He did tell me a long time ago that MCRGO would be fronting the money for him. I believe the amount was 3k, but I don't specifically remember.
I'm not sure if this changes things for anyone. It's just what I've been told.
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I suppose he could be sued for breach of contract. The money was donated for a specific purpose. In accepting that donation he agreed to be bound to using it for that purpose.
It's no different than if you donated to the MOC legal fund and we used it to buy a weekend get-away for BoD members (or even tri-folds).
Yeah, it's essentially fraudulent. I hope he'll reconsider refunding the money, but I'm not going to wait for that. My credit card allows 120 days to dispute a charge and I'll be initializing that process right away. If he'd asked for money to refund the original legal fees after the fact, that would have been one thing (though I likely wouldn't have donated in that instance; I don't believe in retroactive fund-raising). And if I'd wanted my money to go toward MCRGO, I would have donated it to them directly and gotten a membership in return.
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Something I've become aware of since my last post:
The money he paid back to MCRGO was effectively to pay back a loan he owed MCRGO.
Also consider looking if GoFundMe has any refund options for if the money was used improperly.
I never saw the GoFundMe page. What did it say the $ would be used for?
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Money to be used for appeal. The page is still up and he's still taking new donations.
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What URL?
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What URL?
I found this one:
http://www.gofundme.com/DEFFERT
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There's a "Report for fraud" button. If say soliciting funds for one thing and using them for another qualifies.
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I found no "report fraud" button, and I looked everywhere. However, I did file a fraud report against Deffert with GoFundMe stating the particulars and that I would be filing a claim with my credit card provider.
GoFundMe clearly states on their website that it is fraud if the recipient does not use the funds for the stated purpose.
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Just filed a fraud report/CC dispute with my credit card company as well (Chase Visa).
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GoFundMe has contacted me for more details about this incident, and so far seems willing to refund our money.
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I have posted in many places that if I was not able to successfully collect enough funds for an appeal. That I wouldn't be able to go through with it. It said legal fund on my gofundme not appeal fund. I don't know how you guys got the words appeal and legal mixed up. If you guys want refund because you weren't able to read I will be giving refunds as soon as possible. The NRA never said they were going to be able to back my case the article had a correction the following Monday Detroit paper.
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It said legal fund on my gofundme not appeal fund.
As meny of you know I am appealing my case Deffert v. Moe. If you could help me with some support that would be very much appreciated.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MichiganOpenCarry/permalink/900210753350209/
I have about a week left to gather up funds to be able to apply for my appeal...it'll be up to folks like you and me to to make sure that Deffert vs Moe gets sent to appeals court.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MichiganOpenCarry/permalink/909604825744135/
I have about a week left to gather up funds to be able to apply for my appeal...it'll be up to folks like you and me to to make sure that Deffert vs Moe gets sent to appeals court.
https://www.facebook.com/MichiganOpenCarry/posts/10153004985916234
Mr. Deffert seeks to appeal that ruling into the 6th Circuit US Court of Appeals. This appeal is not just about Mr. Deffert.
http://www.gofundme.com/deffert
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What are the words circled in red?
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What are the words circled in red?
Titling the page "Legal Fund" does not make it a general legal fund when the description on the page very clearly and exclusively outlines it as being for appeal, and sending a message via that appeal (ie, the general language in the title is restricted by the specific language in the description). Now, I just received confirmation that you've refunded my donated funds, and although I think you could have been more forthcoming, I'm no longer as annoyed, and I thank you for dealing honestly with me - hakuna matata, as they say. I trust you'll offer the same refund to anyone else who may have been misinformed misread the GoFundMe page.
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I don't care about the refund. I would rather my $50 went to Mr. Deffert's children or a night out for him and his wife, ammo, property taxes, anything except MCRGO.
I don't know what kind of crap deal MCRGO gave Mr. Deffert but any respectable organization was going to stake horse a case they should not ask for the money back, further they should be prepared to go the distance.
Mr. Deffert was wronged, the ruling was $#|t the Judge should be censured. It sucks that the only real way to do that is with way more money for the attorneys to get the 6th to do it.
I make no secret I do NOT TRUST Dulan, and I think MCRGO gets to claim they get things done in spite of them selves.
I was willing to hold my nose regarding Dulan and help as much as I could, and I am sorry we as a group could not muster the support needed to make this thing happen. I also wish the NRA was helping push activist judges off the bench, I just don't see them helping the grass roots with anything more than Name support so they can claim the publicity to push donations.
It sucks, It pisses me off, for the love of god please don't give the money I pledged to MCRGO.
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I thank you for dealing honestly with me - hakuna matata, as they say.
I got a chuckle out of that.
I hope Johann can laugh about it too.
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I hope Johann can laugh about it too.
Ditto. I figure a little comic relief never hurts in a tense discussion. Hopefully.
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And this is why I stayed clear of this. I felt the go fund me was worded strangely and I have observed this attorney in action and had little faith in MCRGO or him. Deffert got screwed no doubt.. But this is fraud plain and simple.
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