Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

General Category => Off Topic Stuff => Topic started by: Jeff on July 29, 2014, 02:55:33 PM

Title: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on July 29, 2014, 02:55:33 PM
Anyone else besides me still without power?

It went down Sunday around 4pm, and not expected back up until WEDNESDAY at 11:30pm.

It's not so bad for me now that I have a generator backfeeding the house but I still have to fuel it back up every 3 hours.  For whatever reason I have internet.  But not cable TV haha.  Stupid high frequency/low frequency mumbo jumbo.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: SD40VE on July 29, 2014, 04:54:45 PM
Anyone else besides me still without power?

It went down Sunday around 4pm, and not expected back up until WEDNESDAY at 11:30pm.

It's not so bad for me now that I have a generator backfeeding the house but I still have to fuel it back up every 3 hours.  For whatever reason I have internet.  But not cable TV haha.  Stupid high frequency/low frequency mumbo jumbo.

i didnt lose power in new haven
Title: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on July 29, 2014, 06:11:41 PM
I have a standby generator at my new house in Lansing.  I wired a portable at my old house in Waterford.  Transfer switch into the panel.  (The correct way :))

When I sold my old house, I told the new owner about it.  I suggested he pick up a portable generator.  He kind of ignored me, said he wouldn't need one.  Now, every time there's a storm, I check DTEEnergy's outage map.  Sold the house in November 2013.  There's been six extended power outages.  Ha ha.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/30/e8e7enan.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/30/u8yhemuh.jpg)
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Golden Eagle on July 30, 2014, 09:30:30 AM
I have a standby generator at my new house in Lansing.  I wired a portable at my old house in Waterford.  Transfer switch into the panel.  (The correct way :))

thax for the pics I've always wondered what the correct way was. :D
Were those the breakers with the notches in the back? I have those they're like $80 apiece refurbished.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on July 30, 2014, 08:34:48 PM
I didn't have to replace any breakers.  The load center and breakers were Eaton.  They run about $5 for a 20 amp breaker.

I bought a Reliance Controls Transfer Switch (http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?30310A) from Amazon.

You identify the circuits you want power with the generator.  This works well (http://www.harborfreight.com/circuit-breaker-detective-96934.html)  Then disconnect the wire from the circuit and tie it to the black wire going to the transfer(tx) switch.  The corresponding red wire from the tx switch goes back into the breaker.  The switch is a break-before-make that toggles from generator, off, and line.  (Read that as "Not possible to shock a lineman or blow up your generator.")  It took me about 6 hours total to identify circuits, calculate circuit load, balance load across power rails, watch YouTube videos, mount the outlet outside and the tx switch to the wall, and finally wire the load center.

It's a safe way to quickly power your house in an outage and perform regular testing.  No hassle with exention cords, main breakers, or leaving your door or window open to run wires.  Plus, when utility power is restored, the non-generator backed circuits energize normally.  At your convienence, flip the switches back to line and power down the generator.  You can also safely load test the generator with utility power present.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: gryphon on July 30, 2014, 09:17:17 PM
  This works well (http://www.harborfreight.com/circuit-breaker-detective-96934.html) 

That's what a wife is for (among other things).
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on July 30, 2014, 09:27:46 PM
That's what a wife is for (among other things).

I had my wife plugging it into outlets all over the house.  I stayed in one spot and scanned the breakers.  I'm lazy...
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: part deux on July 31, 2014, 09:14:36 PM
I have the same unit, most of the way installed.  Last time we lost power, it became obvious that my wife would struggle if I was ever out of town and needed to power up the house.

Been dragging my feet, because I also need to run three new circuits.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on July 31, 2014, 09:47:48 PM
I have the same unit, most of the way installed.  Last time we lost power, it became obvious that my wife would struggle if I was ever out of town and needed to power up the house.

Been dragging my feet, because I also need to run three new circuits.

I had a really good relationship with my neighbors at the old place.  He would have fired up the generator and plugged it in, the wife knew how to flip the switches.  If I was at work when power came back, the wife would flip back and turn the generator off.  I put it away when I got home.
Title: Power Outage.
Post by: TheQ on August 01, 2014, 03:26:46 AM

I had a really good relationship with my neighbors at the old place.  He would have fired up the generator and plugged it in, the wife knew how to flip the switches.  If I was at work when power came back, the wife would flip back and turn the generator off.  I put it away when I got home.

Hopefully she'd turn it off and THEN flip back...?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: part deux on August 01, 2014, 08:31:15 AM
Hopefully she'd turn it off and THEN flip back...?
That's the beauty of the switch panel he had and why I choose it.  It doesn't matter, and you can't screw it up.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on August 01, 2014, 06:02:55 PM
Hopefully she'd turn it off and THEN flip back...?

Other way around.  You flip the transfer switch from gen to line.  It disconnects the generator, then attaches the utility.  They are engineered to never allow current to travel from utility to generator and vice versa.  That's why they are the only way to wire a generator and be within electrical code.

The generator continues to run without load from the house.  Most manufacturers recommend a cool down period where the generator continues to run without power being drawn from it.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 01, 2014, 07:10:29 PM
Well mine is wired up the WRONG way.  I just have to be careful not to accidentally turn the main on in the house before turning OFF and disconnecting the generator in the garage.  And make sure I have the Generator unhooked before turning the main back on in the house.  I'm pretty OCD and check my work 50 times so I don't see me ever screwing that up.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: part deux on August 02, 2014, 12:41:42 AM
Well mine is wired up the WRONG way.  I just have to be careful not to accidentally turn the main on in the house before turning OFF and disconnecting the generator in the garage.  And make sure I have the Generator unhooked before turning the main back on in the house.  I'm pretty OCD and check my work 50 times so I don't see me ever screwing that up.

Either install an interlock switch, or a generator panel like shown above.  You do it wrong, you can cause an electrical fire, or even kill a lineman.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 02, 2014, 01:50:02 PM
Either install an interlock switch, or a generator panel like shown above.  You do it wrong, you can cause an electrical fire, or even kill a lineman.

 :yikes: WOA!!, I knew about a possible fire, but I didn't know it could cause someones death.  I believe my generator has breakers on it too that would cut it off.  I will look into it more.

Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: gryphon on August 02, 2014, 02:24:38 PM
If you backfeed a line from your house, and a lineman is working on what he thinks is a dead line, there could be problems.  Not only for him, but for you.  If he has grounded/shorted the lines for safety while he works and you put power on them, what do you think might happen?  And if he doesn't have grounded/shorted lines (or maybe he did and he's just removing the ground straps), what do you think might happen?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 02, 2014, 02:57:49 PM
If you backfeed a line from your house, and a lineman is working on what he thinks is a dead line, there could be problems.  Not only for him, but for you.  If he has grounded/shorted the lines for safety while he works and you put power on them, what do you think might happen?  And if he doesn't have grounded/shorted lines (or maybe he did and he's just removing the ground straps), what do you think might happen?

Well, that's why I turn the main off in the house, the flow of electricity will not reach a DTE worker while they are doing repair work on a line somewhere.

DTE <---> Box in basement <---> box in garage.

Main off in basement. no back flow to DTE.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 07:26:45 PM
Well, that's why I turn the main off in the house, the flow of electricity will not reach a DTE worker while they are doing repair work on a line somewhere.

DTE <---> Box in basement <---> box in garage.

Main off in basement. no back flow to DTE.
Are you sure about that? And Just how do you test that circuit breaker to ensure that all of the contacts are open?

The primary voltage is 13,200 volts before it goes through the transformer that feeds your house and is reduced to 208 volts. Going backwards from your generator it starts out as 208 volts before it backfeeds through the transformer and becomes 13,200 volts on the line that the lineman is repairing.

Linemen get killed by people like you that backfeed with a generator during power outages. And the people that cause the deaths are charged criminally. Is that a risk you are willing to take? Not only with your freedom. But with the life of another?

For about $150 you can get a cover for your electrical service that has a manual interlock that is suitable and rated for use as a generator/line disconnect.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 02, 2014, 08:04:37 PM
I would think you would treat a line as live unless proven otherwise? :shrug:
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 02, 2014, 08:53:23 PM
How is electricity going to flow through a circuit that is disconnected.  The breaker was off so it can't go through.  I can test this by turning off the main and I will have no power, therefore no power flow, so it's not getting out of the house to go into electrical lines outside.  In the case that it was backfeeding DTE, it would trip the breaker on the generator instantly because it couldn't handle that kind of load.

But main OFF, no power is getting in or out, to or from the lines.

So NO people like me who have the main off are not killing linemen.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 09:16:21 PM
How is electricity going to flow through a circuit that is disconnected.  The breaker was off so it can't go through.  I can test this by turning off the main and I will have no power, therefore no power flow, so it's not getting out of the house to go into electrical lines outside.  In the case that it was backfeeding DTE, it would trip the breaker on the generator instantly because it couldn't handle that kind of load.

But main OFF, no power is getting in or out, to or from the lines.

So NO people like me who have the main off are not killing linemen.
You obviously do not have a working knowledge of electrical distribution systems.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 02, 2014, 09:39:57 PM
You obviously do not have a working knowledge of electrical distribution systems.

I would love to be enlightened as to how electricity is going to flow out of my house when it's disconnected.

I suppose if i pulled the main out of the box I'm still risking the life of a lineman too right?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on August 02, 2014, 09:48:18 PM
I am not an electrician, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Safety point #1
Breakers are designed to cut power when the current flow across them exceeds the rating for a specified duration of time.  Transfer switches are designed to never allow the generator feed to connect to the utility feed.  Interlocks are designed to do the same.  You can't forget and do something wrong with a properly installed transfer switch/interlock.  "I thought the generator was unplugged" is like saying "I didn't think the gun was loaded."

Safety point #2
You also have one or two cables with two male ends.  If the plug falls out of the outlet you are back-feeding, the end is live.  The live ends of wires are supposed to be female to reduce shock hazard when connecting/disconnecting.  Properly wired generators have an outlet with a male end and the cable between the house and generator is a male-female extension cable.  There's a reason why it's called a "Suicide Cable"

Safety point #3
Most generators provide two NEMA 6-20R outlets. It looks like a normal outlet, but the neutral can be vertical or horizontal. These have breakers that cap the output at 20A.  Most people back-feed through outlets rated at 15A.  It is possible* for the outlet and a portion of the wiring in your wall to carry up to 20A, over wire rated at 15A.  20A over 15A wire produces heat.  Will it start a fire?  Probably not.  Could it? Yes.

*Certain conditions required, it's a lot to type out.

I would think you would treat a line as live unless proven otherwise? :shrug:
  Yes, but if the line energizes after you've checked it?

I suppose if i pulled the main out of the box I'm still risking the life of a lineman too right?
You can't remove the main from most load centers.  You'd also have a slight problem when utility power was restored.  Pull the meter... oh wait, DTE knows when you do that.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 10:00:02 PM
You evidently had a very comfortable stay at the Holiday Inn Express, Daniel.

The breaker on the generator will only trip if there is a difference of potential that creates a sufficient load. If the generator is feeding an ungrounded conductor, the breaker will not trip. Even if the lineman is in series with the generator supplied voltage and a grounded  conductor, a grounding conductor, or ground.

Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 02, 2014, 10:23:19 PM
I would still like to know how electricity is getting back to the lines with the main switch off?

If my generator is going to to produce 13,200 volts at a transformer, does that mean that my cell phone plugged into the wall, and I unplug the charger, does that mean that my phone battery is producing 110 volts at the 110 prongs at the transformer in my charger?  Because that's basically what you're saying.

If someone would love to paypal me the money I would gladly install those wonderful products.  Until then, common sense prevails and I know not to flip the main on in the house while the generator is running.

Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: gryphon on August 02, 2014, 10:27:44 PM
I would love to be enlightened as to how electricity is going to flow out of my house when it's disconnected.
Quote
I would still like to know how electricity is getting back to the lines with the main switch off?

Reread the first line of Pat's post, Reply #17:

Are you sure about that? And Just how do you test that circuit breaker to ensure that all of the contacts are open?

Breakers can fail.  Switches can fail.  I have seen, and I don't doubt Pat has seen, or at least heard about, switches staying closed after the handle was thrown into the open (off) position.  That's why, after turning it off, you double check there is no voltage to the bottom of a breaker or switch before performing maintenance or repairs to the panel or equipment downstream.  Of course, in the case of a power outage, you can't do that.  In your case, Pat asked you how you are ensuring all the contacts in your breaker are really open?  You are "assuming" they are, just like people "assume" a gun is unloaded.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 02, 2014, 10:43:57 PM
Yes it can be checked with a resistance meter.  You can check a switch any time, anywhere.  Fluke 77 multimeter in OHMS to ensure it's open. 

Are we done here?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 10:51:12 PM
I have seen plenty of "brand new" equipment fail. Knife blades in swing jacks that didn't open all phases is a perfect example. Single phase of breakers that don't open or close.

In the real world we test circuits prior to working on them. We use tag out and lock out procedures to ensure that circuits don't become energized while working on them.

We never expect a jackass to energize them while we have our dick skinners holding conductors. But it happens. And that's when guys get burned. Or worse yet maimed or killed.

What Jeff is suggesting to do is criminal.

If you can afford the generator, you can afford the safety equipment to install it properly. It doesn't take thousands of dollars. A few hundred at most.

An attorney to defend you in a wrongful death suit, after your criminal case, is going to cost $7,500 just for the retainer for a case you will lose.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 10:55:04 PM
Yes it can be checked with a resistance meter.  You can check a switch any time, anywhere.  Fluke 77 multimeter in OHMS to ensure it's open. 

Are we done here?
A fluke meter is insufficient in measuring insulation resistance. The 9volt battery can't break down the resistance that a high resistance short will produce. Only a megohmmeter can do that. And if you can afford a megohmmeter, you can afford to do the job properly.

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/products.htm?item=210400&ref=gbase&gclid=CL-ave-L9r8CFeg7MgodXWEAOA
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 02, 2014, 11:14:43 PM
Next time I will call DTE, tell them I'm removing the meter so that I can "safely backfeed" the house so that I don't get 90 billion what if scenarios that I just can't possibly win because some people are hell bent on hypothetical scenarios in which eventually there is no answer.

A transfer switch can fail, I guess the only real safe way is to remove the meter and be done with it.  But I take it we aren't done here are we because I'm sure there is some other scenario that will cause another one of your eggs to drop.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 02, 2014, 11:16:28 PM
What Jeff is suggesting to do is criminal.

Relying on the breaker to do its job, and then having it fail would be criminal? That's news to me.

Hell, if we operate under the premise that breakers fail back into a closed position on any sort of regular basis, then we might as well go back to using fuses.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 11:22:24 PM
Relying on the breaker to do its job, and then having it fail would be criminal? That's news to me.

Hell, if we operate under the premise that breakers fail back into a closed position on any sort of regular basis, then we might as well go back to using fuses.
They fail to open. And relying on the breaker isn't criminal. Killing a lineman because of backfeeding through an improperly wired generator is.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 11:25:20 PM
Next time I will call DTE, tell them I'm removing the meter so that I can "safely backfeed" the house so that I don't get 90 billion what if scenarios that I just can't possibly win because some people are hell bent on hypothetical scenarios in which eventually there is no answer.

A transfer switch can fail, I guess the only real safe way is to remove the meter and be done with it.  But I take it we aren't done here are we because I'm sure there is some other scenario that will cause another one of your eggs to drop.
And then how do you safely install the meter back into the energized service.
Ever see someone that has suffered 3rd degree burns from arch flash? I have. It's a very painful injury. And you can be blinded.
That is why all electrical distribution equipment is operated with a dead front enclosure.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 02, 2014, 11:29:32 PM
They fail to open.

Ok, same thing. In either case, you could get circuit that's still closed and a house that burns down in the event a current overage occurs that causes sufficient heating.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 11:34:44 PM
Ok, same thing. In either case, you could get circuit that's still closed and a house that burns down in the event a current overage occurs that causes sufficient heating.
That does happen. Federal Pacific (FPE) breakers were notorious for this. The fire at the Lionel Train factory in Chesterfield Twp was attributed to this. FPE is no longer in business.

But in this discussion we are talking about the manually opening of the breaker and not having all of the poles open. This is another common occurrence that happens when the unskilled do not properly grasp the tie handle of the breaker when throwing it.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 02, 2014, 11:42:56 PM

WPMI-TV
A Georgia man died while working with a utility crew restoring electrical service to Flomaton following Hurricane Dennis.(FLOMATON, Ala.-AP) July 13 05

Police said 41-year-old Ronnie Allen Adams Junior, ofWinterville, Georgia, died yesterday afternoon.

Adams, who worked for Pike Electric, Incorporated, of MountAiry, North Carolina, was in a bucket truck working on power lines when he slumped over.

In a statement, Flomaton Police Chief Mike Lambert saysco-workers attempted to revive Adams with C-P-R. Adams wasairlifted to Jay Hospital where he was pronounced dead at 5:44 p.m. Tuesday.

Cause of death was immediately determined to have been from an improperly wired generator that was backfeeding current to the line that Adams was repairing. An autopsy is planned by the Escambia County, Florida, Medical Examiners Office.

Flomaton police arrested Samuel Peters, a local handyman, and homeowner William Anderson, on charges of negligent homicide. Flomaton police and officials from Alabama Power Company are continuing to investige the incident.

Dennis made landfall Sunday between Pensacola and Navarre Beach. Flomaton was one of the inland cities damaged by the storm.

(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8565145/
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 02, 2014, 11:52:43 PM
WPMI-TV
A Georgia man died while working with a utility crew restoring electrical service to Flomaton following Hurricane Dennis.(FLOMATON, Ala.-AP) July 13 05

Police said 41-year-old Ronnie Allen Adams Junior, ofWinterville, Georgia, died yesterday afternoon.

Adams, who worked for Pike Electric, Incorporated, of MountAiry, North Carolina, was in a bucket truck working on power lines when he slumped over.

In a statement, Flomaton Police Chief Mike Lambert saysco-workers attempted to revive Adams with C-P-R. Adams wasairlifted to Jay Hospital where he was pronounced dead at 5:44 p.m. Tuesday.

Cause of death was immediately determined to have been from an improperly wired generator that was backfeeding current to the line that Adams was repairing. An autopsy is planned by the Escambia County, Florida, Medical Examiners Office.

Flomaton police arrested Samuel Peters, a local handyman, and homeowner William Anderson, on charges of negligent homicide. Flomaton police and officials from Alabama Power Company are continuing to investige the incident.

Dennis made landfall Sunday between Pensacola and Navarre Beach. Flomaton was one of the inland cities damaged by the storm.

(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8565145/

And was this because the guy didn't open the service disconnect, or because it failed to open due to "operator error" or some mechanical defect?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 03, 2014, 12:04:13 AM
And was this because the guy didn't open the service disconnect, or because it failed to open due to "operator error" or some mechanical defect?
Doesn't matter. Wasn't wired in accordance with NFPA 70.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: autosurgeon on August 03, 2014, 12:14:13 AM
Here is the problem with blaming the breaker. The plates you can install to isolate the generator breaker and the main breaker rely on you guessed it the supposedly fail prone breaker.

Now I dont think these would be NEC approved if there was a large concern about breakers failing to open. Granted some breakers have been proven to be defective. But in general breakers from well known companies are reliable and safe.

I have installed manual transfer switches and am currently installing an automatic smart transfer switch a my parents home to operate their new 17000 kw ng standby generator. Based on how these work they a pretty much fail safe. But they have moving parts and could fail same as a breaker.

Really the issue with transfer switches is not the concern of backfeed due to malfunctioning main breakers its the concern of morons not following procedure and leaving the main on. I have read the files from a number of backfeed death investigations and in every case they found the main breaker fully in the on or energized position. This is a failure of the operator not the breaker.

So in essence the reason for transfer switches and interlock devices is to keep idiots from hurting or killing others and to allow said idiots to safely operate a generator attached to their home.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 03, 2014, 12:36:40 AM
Here is the problem with blaming the breaker. The plates you can install to isolate the generator breaker and the main breaker rely on you guessed it the supposedly fail prone breaker.

Now I dont think these would be NEC approved if there was a large concern about breakers failing to open. Granted some breakers have been proven to be defective. But in general breakers from well known companies are reliable and safe.

I have installed manual transfer switches and am currently installing an automatic smart transfer switch a my parents home to operate their new 17000 kw ng standby generator. Based on how these work they a pretty much fail safe. But they have moving parts and could fail same as a breaker.

Really the issue with transfer switches is not the concern of backfeed due to malfunctioning main breakers its the concern of morons not following procedure and leaving the main on. I have read the files from a number of backfeed death investigations and in every case they found the main breaker fully in the on or energized position. This is a failure of the operator not the breaker.

So in essence the reason for transfer switches and interlock devices is to keep idiots from hurting or killing others and to allow said idiots to safely operate a generator attached to their home.

Hence the purpose of NFPA 70...

It is for the practical safeguard of life and property against the hazards arising from the use of electricity.

Wiring a generator to a service without a transfer switch (manual or automatic) is not the way to do it. Why... Because the propensity to kill someone exists. Why not just do it right and avoid that risk? If it is wired correctly and a failure occurs there is no criminal negligence.

Wire it wrong and a failure occurs, resulting in death, your life will be ruined.

Why take the chance for a lousy few hundred bucks?!?!?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 03, 2014, 12:52:03 AM


Really the issue with transfer switches is not the concern of backfeed due to malfunctioning main breakers its the concern of morons not following procedure and leaving the main on. I have read the files from a number of backfeed death investigations and in every case they found the main breaker fully in the on or energized position. This is a failure of the operator not the breaker.

So in essence the reason for transfer switches and interlock devices is to keep idiots from hurting or killing others and to allow said idiots to safely operate a generator attached to their home.

I am not one of those people, I do not feel that I am causing any danger to anybody.  Electricity isn't to be messed around with.  If you mess with 440 you don't screw around and are probably not one of those generic morons.  I understand you can always do more for safety but where does it end.

As far as third degree burns from reactivating the meter, my neighbor has done it at least 15 times because we lose power constantly over here.  On average it's probably 6 times per year for more than a day at a time.  DTE was given 30 days to upgrade the area to code but they only did the minimum because it would cost them way too much money so we are prone to excessive power outages.  It has only been twice since their supposed upgrade so far but the year isn't over (I won't count if it's only for like an hour or two).

I have faith in my main actually being open.  Maybe I should get a transfer switch because we lose power so often I just don't feel that I need it.  $279 at home depot, maybe one of these days when I have the money. 

Title: Re: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Glock9mmOldStyle on August 03, 2014, 07:29:59 AM
I am not one of those people, I do not feel that I am causing any danger to anybody.  Electricity isn't to be messed around with.  If you mess with 440 you don't screw around and are probably not one of those generic morons.  I understand you can always do more for safety but where does it end.

As far as third degree burns from reactivating the meter, my neighbor has done it at least 15 times because we lose power constantly over here.  On average it's probably 6 times per year for more than a day at a time.  DTE was given 30 days to upgrade the area to code but they only did the minimum because it would cost them way too much money so we are prone to excessive power outages.  It has only been twice since their supposed upgrade so far but the year isn't over (I won't count if it's only for like an hour or two).

I have faith in my main actually being open.  Maybe I should get a transfer switch because we lose power so often I just don't feel that I need it.  $279 at home depot, maybe one of these days when I have the money.

Reading through this thread brings back bad memories. In the Downriver community I lived in the power went out what seemed to be almost a weekly basis. Rain = power out, wind = power out, barometric pressure too high/low = power out (just kidding) Usually for a couple of hours but, at times for days. DTE always bubble gummed & pop sickle sticked a solution to the problem IMHO. Been gone nearly two years and have had one (1) power outage that affected roughly 20 of the homes in my neighborhood. Was fixed in two hours by APS. No issues since.

Mind you we have monsoon rains here, extreme heat/extreme demand for electricity, haboobs (giant sand storms) and the occasional drunk illegal immigrant driving into power poles. So while not perfect, APS is vastly better at fixing things than DTE in my experience.  YMMV. Stay safe and hope your power is always there when you need it. :)
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 03, 2014, 08:18:00 AM
I am not one of those people, I do not feel that I am causing any danger to anybody.  Electricity isn't to be messed around with.  If you mess with 440 you don't screw around and are probably not one of those generic morons.  I understand you can always do more for safety but where does it end.

As far as third degree burns from reactivating the meter, my neighbor has done it at least 15 times because we lose power constantly over here.  On average it's probably 6 times per year for more than a day at a time.  DTE was given 30 days to upgrade the area to code but they only did the minimum because it would cost them way too much money so we are prone to excessive power outages.  It has only been twice since their supposed upgrade so far but the year isn't over (I won't count if it's only for like an hour or two).

I have faith in my main actually being open.  Maybe I should get a transfer switch because we lose power so often I just don't feel that I need it.  $279 at home depot, maybe one of these days when I have the money.
But you are!!! Your posts in this thread have proven it. If you can't be trusted to do the safe thing with common electricty, when it comes to endangering another person, how can you be trusted when it comes to being arund with a loaded gun?!?!?

And your neighbor is an unsafe idiot too.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: part deux on August 03, 2014, 10:59:05 AM
As correctly pointed out there are a couple of inexpensive and fairly easy to install options.  Someone's life is not worth avoiding proper safe and LEGAL installation.

You're at the outdoor range setting up a new target.  Someone on the line is handling their firearm.  They are positive it's unloaded and you shouldn't be worried about them handling the firearm.

Do it the right way with a gen panel or interlock.

Personally I like the gen panel as it allows me to have better control of the circuits that are powered, especially since I have three freezers.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 03, 2014, 11:20:49 AM
It's interesting that every argument I have seen on this forum involves PAT.  He just recently insulted birdseed away, and now feels the need to throw insults at me.  I'm too old for this crap, this kind of behavior should have ended in high school.

Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on August 03, 2014, 11:37:56 AM
You evidently had a very comfortable stay at the Holiday Inn Express, Daniel.

The breaker on the generator will only trip if there is a difference of potential that creates a sufficient load. If the generator is feeding an ungrounded conductor, the breaker will not trip. Even if the lineman is in series with the generator supplied voltage and a grounded  conductor, a grounding conductor, or ground.

I was referencing the breaker on the generator for protection of the interior wiring, not the linesman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jo_x7ecIFg
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Super Trucker on August 03, 2014, 03:33:35 PM
It's interesting that every argument I have seen on this forum involves PAT.  He just recently insulted birdseed away, and now feels the need to throw insults at me.  I'm too old for this crap, this kind of behavior should have ended in high school.



The point he started out NICELY to make is that what you are doing is wrong. You keep arguing causing him to try to get the point across.
I will say it very easy, since you admitted you are doing it wrong and are to cheap to spend the money to fix the problem you caused, yet have money for guns and ammo I would say that problem should have been learned in high school. It is what I would call priorities.

And as a side note if Pat chased birdseed away I would like offer pat a thank you for a job well done, that guy is a problem waiting to happen, he reminded me of neil with all of his self created drama.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Jeff on August 03, 2014, 03:52:01 PM
Because insults and personal attacks are always the mature way to handle things.  I have spoken with several people who have no problem with it, I even stated when I have the money I might install a transfer switch. 

That's excellent that you condone the outright insulting of another person on a forum because you didn't like the other person.  It doesn't make them right, it just makes them.....  Well not very nice person.

I say ill unhook the meter, that wasn't even good enough now ill somehow stick my fingers in the prongs and fry myself, there was no answer good enough for someone who just wanted to argue every single thing you have to say.

What problem did I cause?

Ah I'm done here, marking post as read so we can move on to next week where there is another argument involving the same person.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Super Trucker on August 03, 2014, 03:55:56 PM
Because insults and personal attacks are always the mature way to handle things.  I have spoken with several people who have no problem with it, I even stated when I have the money I might install a transfer switch. 

That's excellent that you condone the outright insulting of another person on a forum because you didn't like the other person.  It doesn't make them right, it just makes them.....  Well not very nice person.

I say ill unhook the meter, that wasn't even good enough now ill somehow stick my fingers in the prongs and fry myself, there was no answer good enough for someone who just wanted to argue every single thing you have to say.

What problem did I cause?

Ah I'm done here, marking post as read so we can move on to next week where there is another argument involving the same person.
The point you can not seem to comprehend is that you haven't caused a problem YET, but there is a possibility you could kill somebody and you say when I have enough money I will get around to it, yet you keep talking about the money you piss away on things of less priority. That in my opinion makes you not a nice person.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: Golden Eagle on August 03, 2014, 05:04:10 PM
"I thought the generator was unplugged" is like saying "I didn't think the gun was loaded."

   What he said.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 03, 2014, 07:10:21 PM
Because insults and personal attacks are always the mature way to handle things.  I have spoken with several people who have no problem with it, I even stated when I have the money I might install a transfer switch. 

That's excellent that you condone the outright insulting of another person on a forum because you didn't like the other person.  It doesn't make them right, it just makes them.....  Well not very nice person.

I say ill unhook the meter, that wasn't even good enough now ill somehow stick my fingers in the prongs and fry myself, there was no answer good enough for someone who just wanted to argue every single thing you have to say.

What problem did I cause?

Ah I'm done here, marking post as read so we can move on to next week where there is another argument involving the same person.
You apparently do not know what an insult or personal attack are.

You can consider it personal, in that you are the one that is engaging in a practice that has a very high propensity to kill someone. It is for that reason and no other whatsoever that the authors of NFPA 70 included provisions specifically on the manner in which stand-by generators are to be connected to premises wiring. But you are so much more wise than the numerous persons that develop and update that manual.

And your insipid analogy of how your phone will produce a line voltage through the charger is nothing less than ridiculous.

I will argue electrical safety until the cows come home.

It is my profession. I have over 40 years as an electrician. I have worked on practically  every type of electrical system imaginable.

I have worked on limited energy data wiring, coal powered generating plants, gas turbine generating plants, nearly every single automotive plant in southeastern Michigan (Woodhaven Stamping, Poletown, Sterling Stamping, Livonia Transmission, Michigan Truck, Detroit Diesel, Ford Rouge, Double Eagle Galvanizer, Great Lakes Steel, Dodge Main, Chrysler Jefferson, Trenton Channel Power House, St Clair Power House, Avoca Power House, Greektown Casino...), housing projects, apartment complexes,  construction of the McNamara Terminal, Ford Field, Comerica Park, Joe Lewis Arena, Troy Sports, Macomb County Jail, Wyandotte Waste Water Treatment, Detroit Water Pumping, Detroit WasteWater, Great Lakes Crossing... When you drive by the Detroit Zoo and see the lights on the water tower, I put them there.

You want to talk electricity? You've come to the right guy.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: gryphon on August 03, 2014, 08:38:20 PM
Wow, for a minute there I thought you might have been on some of my projects, but then I didn't see any GM assembly plants listed. :D

Oops, just noticed you said Poletown.  GM Hamtramck Assembly?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 03, 2014, 08:40:40 PM
Wow, for a minute there I thought you might have been on some of my projects, but then I didn't see any GM assembly plants listed. :D
No. Poletown isn't an assembly plant.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: part deux on August 03, 2014, 09:03:56 PM
thanks to this thread, I got my gen panel mostly installed.  I'm running three new circuits for the freezers and those will still need to be wired.  But, everything works as it's supposed it!
Title: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on August 03, 2014, 11:16:47 PM

thanks to this thread, I got my gen panel mostly installed.  I'm running three new circuits for the freezers and those will still need to be wired.  But, everything works as it's supposed it!

Great!! Out of curiosity, which one did you get?

Check the combined current of all three. If they are in close proximity, you have proper wiring, and they're under 20A, put them on a single 20A circuit. Then you can power some other goodies in the house.

But make sure you balance the load across both legs of the generator.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 04, 2014, 12:18:36 AM
Doesn't matter. Wasn't wired in accordance with NFPA 70.

Oh, but it damn well does matter. Failed equipment != negligent.

Maybe linemen should take tag out procedures to the field and disconnect service to the houses on that circuit until the work is complete?

Because to not do so under the assumption that the line won't be energized is the equivalent of receiving a firearm from someone and just taking their word it's been cleared.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: part deux on August 04, 2014, 09:20:46 AM
Great!! Out of curiosity, which one did you get?

Check the combined current of all three. If they are in close proximity, you have proper wiring, and they're under 20A, put them on a single 20A circuit. Then you can power some other goodies in the house.

But make sure you balance the load across both legs of the generator.
Got the 10 circuit unit, set it up for 30 amps.  Tried to balance it best I could.  After I get the individual freezer circuits run, we'll be in great shape.  This was mostly to make it easy for my wife if I'm ever traveling.  Two freezers on one leg, one freezer and fridge on the other leg.  As long as they don't try to simultaneously start, life should be good.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 04, 2014, 10:08:54 AM
Oh, but it damn well does matter. Failed equipment != negligent.

Maybe linemen should take tag out procedures to the field and disconnect service to the houses on that circuit until the work is complete?

Because to not do so under the assumption that the line won't be energized is the equivalent of receiving a firearm from someone and just taking their word it's been cleared.
The negligence is not in the failed equipment. It's in the act of improper installation.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: autosurgeon on August 16, 2014, 05:26:08 PM
Here is the automatic transfer switch I wired up for my dad.(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/08/16/a66a24e9677d47441591c56ae0eda7db.jpg)
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on August 16, 2014, 08:49:49 PM
Ohh the big 'un. 

Since your load center is now a sub-panel, did you have to re-route your neutrals and grounds?

The electrician that wired my current house brought the neutral and grounds together on the same side as the circuit.  As a result, half the grounds and half the neutrals needed to be moved. :(  Not that the original install wasn't to code, it was just an added step.

Have you thought about wiring the AC into the panel or is the generator sufficient for the startup current?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: autosurgeon on August 16, 2014, 10:50:02 PM
The neutrals both connect to the center angled buss bar. The grounds are on the one above it. So yes

The gen wires look tiny because they are copper and the utility feed is alum.
 

The gen should handle the AC we will know for sure once we get the gas line run and can test the system. If not we can isolate it as the panel has an AC isolator built in. It will only allow it to start when the total load is below a certain threshold.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on August 17, 2014, 12:14:30 AM
The neutrals both connect to the center angled buss bar. The grounds are on the one above it. So yes

I was referring to your existing panel.  When an automatic tx switch is installed, it becomes the service disconnect and the load center (aka "main panel") actually becomes a sub-panel.  As a result, the ground-to-neutral bond in the load center needs to be disconnected.  Your load center should then have a neutral bus and a separate ground bus that are wired over to the tx switch.  That short green wire will then be the only ground-to-neutral bond.

I don't see a ground coming from your load center, so I'm guessing you left the bond in place there.  A ground-to-neutral bond in a sub-panel is a NEC no-no.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 19, 2014, 09:39:45 AM
I was referring to your existing panel.  When an automatic tx switch is installed, it becomes the service disconnect and the load center (aka "main panel") actually becomes a sub-panel.  As a result, the ground-to-neutral bond in the load center needs to be disconnected.  Your load center should then have a neutral bus and a separate ground bus that are wired over to the tx switch.  That short green wire will then be the only ground-to-neutral bond.

I don't see a ground coming from your load center, so I'm guessing you left the bond in place there.  A ground-to-neutral bond in a sub-panel is a NEC no-no.
This is correct. The grounded conductor is for carring the imbalance of the load. The grounding conductor is for carrying ground faults.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 21, 2014, 08:12:54 PM
The negligence is not in the failed equipment. It's in the act of improper installation.

And negligence on the lineman for not making sure service was disconnected to the circuit before starting work.
Title: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on August 21, 2014, 09:37:04 PM

And negligence on the lineman for not making sure service was disconnected to the circuit before starting work.

And when a generator energizes a line after it's been checked?

Regardless, your statement is placing blame on the victim for someone else's stupidity.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 24, 2014, 02:28:08 PM
And negligence on the lineman for not making sure service was disconnected to the circuit before starting work.
This exemplifies your misunderstanding of the trade.
When working on "circuits" we physically disconnect the "load" side of the "circuit" from the "line" side of the circuit.
All of the the conductors on the "load" side of the "circuit" are then tested to ensure that they are de-energized.
The circuit is then "locked out and tagged out".
The "load" side of the circuit" is now safe to be worked on.

The problem occurs when a generator that is connected to the "load" side of the circuit. This is what is called "backfeeding." It is called that because the generator is supplying power in the reverse direction.

There is no way possible to locate one of these generators until it energizes the "load" side of the "circuit." And at that point, death or serious injury are the indicators that someone is negligently operating a stand-by generator.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 26, 2014, 08:45:43 AM
And I'm saying disconnect the load side.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 27, 2014, 04:20:23 PM
The load side is disconnected from the line. That's always the de-energized side of the circuit that is being worked on. I suppose that the line crews could disconnect each individual load. But in a case where like today over 100,000 customers are without power, it would take a very long time to go to every house and pull their meters.

Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 28, 2014, 03:28:51 PM
The load side is disconnected from the line. That's always the de-energized side of the circuit that is being worked on. I suppose that the line crews could disconnect each individual load. But in a case where like today over 100,000 customers are without power, it would take a very long time to go to every house and pull their meters.

Safety first, right?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 28, 2014, 05:14:47 PM
Safety first, right?
That's precisely why the provisions for how a standby generator shall be connected to the service conductors was included in NFPA-70. Any deviation from them is unsafe and grossly negligent. And thus, the discussion has come full circle right back to the person responsible for the lineman's death. The person that created the unsafe condition, the homeowner.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 29, 2014, 07:48:58 AM
That's precisely why the provisions for how a standby generator shall be connected to the service conductors was included in NFPA-70. Any deviation from them is unsafe and grossly negligent. And thus, the discussion has come full circle right back to the person responsible for the lineman's death. The person that created the unsafe condition, the homeowner.

Funny how they restrict access to said standard.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 29, 2014, 08:43:57 AM
I still ask again - why would you just trust the consumer/load/demand/whatever you want to call it side to be clean w/o confirming first, or ensuring that it won't be hot?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: TheQ on August 29, 2014, 12:07:53 PM

I still ask again - why would you just trust the consumer/load/demand/whatever you want to call it side to be clean w/o confirming first, or ensuring that it won't be hot?

I suppose you could check the line is cold and start working on it. Right then some jackass energizes the line for whatever reason and.....ZAP
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: gryphon on August 29, 2014, 12:17:50 PM
Grounding straps?
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 29, 2014, 12:33:43 PM
Seems like it would make sense for the power company to use something like this (http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Indoor-General-Duty-Double-Throw-Safety-Switch-TC35322/202978651?N=5yc1vZbm0h) (albeit for the appropriate voltage and amperage requirements). Then it seems like it would be easy to just go to the buildings on the circuit, pull the disconnect, lock it out, do work, and close the circuit when done with the work.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 29, 2014, 02:51:30 PM
Seems like it would make sense for the power company to use something like this (http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Indoor-General-Duty-Double-Throw-Safety-Switch-TC35322/202978651?N=5yc1vZbm0h) (albeit for the appropriate voltage and amperage requirements). Then it seems like it would be easy to just go to the buildings on the circuit, pull the disconnect, lock it out, do work, and close the circuit when done with the work.
They do. The power comes in the top. The disconnect is opened. The power is still present on the top. The bottom is dead. The bottom is the side that is worked on. The bottom is then energized by a negligent homeowner, like one you are advocating for, and the dead side becomes energized. The way to prevent that is by not connecting a standby generator in a negligent manner like you are advocating for.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on August 29, 2014, 02:56:25 PM
Funny how they restrict access to said standard.
It is? Have you tried Google? Even I know how to do that.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on August 29, 2014, 04:12:58 PM
It is? Have you tried Google? Even I know how to do that.

http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/free-access

Quote
As part of its commitment to enhancing public safety, NFPA makes its codes and standards available online to the public for free.

Free you say? Well that would make sense, given that many of these standards are incorporated by reference as law.

Quote
You will be asked to "sign-in" or create a profile to access the document in read-only format.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAH. No.

But hey, lets play the game. I found a login via bugmenot. Sign in worked even. But what do I see?

Quote
FREE ACCESS TO NFPA 70®: NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE® (NEC®) SOFTBOUND
Important NFPA safety information available on demand
Open NFPA 70®: National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Softbound.

The online version of this document is presented in RealRead.
This document is designed to be viewed online: there are no "print", "save", "cut and paste", or "search" options.
Required: a minimum Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 or Netscape 4.7 (for Mac, I.E. 5.0).
Cookies, JavaScript, and Java Applet downloads must be enabled.
Use the Table of Contents to navigate through the RealRead document. The Table of Contents Icon  is at the bottom of the page.
Visit NFPA's Online Catalog to purchase the fully-functional version of NFPA 70®: National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Softbound® and related products.
Return to the list of NFPA codes and standards to select another document.
If you experience any technical difficulties using this tool please submit a request for technical support.

Wait, what? I can't print, search, save, or cut and paste? A god damned java applet is required to read?

Heaven forbid someone actually works on making these standards, which are referenced by law, accessible with a minimum of encumbrance. (https://www.eff.org/press/releases/publicresourceorg-fights-back-against-copyright-lawsuit)

Outside of a legal standpoint, what the hell is the point of a standard if not easily accessible for no cost to the end user?

Quote
They do. The power comes in the top. The disconnect is opened. The power is still present on the top. The bottom is dead. The bottom is the side that is worked on. The bottom is then energized by a negligent homeowner, like one you are advocating for, and the dead side becomes energized. The way to prevent that is by not connecting a standby generator in a negligent manner like you are advocating for.

Clearly I need to break this down barney style. Here's a block diagram that should convey what I am saying:

(http://rrfaae.com/dump/BarneyBreakdown.png)
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on September 01, 2014, 09:22:22 AM
Here:
http://ebookee.org/National-Electrical-Code-NFPA-70-2011-Edition_1130552.html

Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: autosurgeon on September 01, 2014, 10:29:19 AM
Hey Pat turned out that AC unit is an amps hog on start so we hooked it up to the load dump control on the transfer switch.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: autosurgeon on September 01, 2014, 10:30:29 AM
We are going to do the same with the air compressor and electric heat in the paint booth as soon as we get the modules for them.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: linux203 on September 01, 2014, 04:01:12 PM
Hey Pat turned out that AC unit is an amps hog on start so we hooked it up to the load dump control on the transfer switch.

There are capacitors that can help with the startup load from the AC.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CitizensHaveRights on September 01, 2014, 09:30:50 PM
It's my understanding that an AC will always pull LRA = locked rotor amps when starting, but a hard start kit will reduce the time that it draws heavily at startup.

http://www.five-two-one.com/compressor-saver-benefits.html

If your system isn't capable of producing LRA, even for a small fraction of a second, but can provide running amps, you might be able to make it work with a soft start kit. I linked the 'good' variety of hard start kit above, I have no idea of the relative merits of any particular brand of soft start kit, I've never used one. 
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: autosurgeon on September 02, 2014, 04:48:52 PM
Thanks I will look into it!
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CitizensHaveRights on September 03, 2014, 09:08:58 AM
If you can follow the wiring chart that comes with the start kit, the 5-2-1 can be had for $30-50 on the net from places like Amazon. It comes in multiple sizes, I think the U1 I have fits up to 3 ton compressors.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B003FNMADE

I've never run my heat pump without the 5-2-1 kit, I bought the factory Goodman kit as an optional upgrade when it was installed. Turns out that Goodman/Amana sells 5-2-1 brand kits. Some other manufactures make up their own 5-2-1 style kits with the capacitor and potential relay specifically sized to their compressors. Some of the better HVAC contractors stock a variety of start capacitors and potential relays on the truck and make up custom start kits as needed.
With the 5-2-1, spin-up is seemingly instant, like side-stepping the clutch on your car with the wheels off the ground.

Since mine is only 1.5 ton, power requirements are mild, LRA=47A, running amps = 7.
I ran my heat pump on a temporary feed before the proper 240v line was run to it. Should have at least 12ga wire and a 20A HACR rated (slow-blow) breaker. For a few days, it had a long run of 14ga wire fed by a fast acting 15A breaker. With the 5-2-1 kit, it never blew the fast 15A breaker despite having a 47 Amp LRA rating. When the 10ga/20A HACR line was run to the heat pump, it didn't sound any different than it did running off the 14ga line.

I can't tell you how my heat pump runs on a generator, I use the furnace for heat during power failures and I've never needed A/C bad enough to want to power it with $4/gallon gasoline. I pay $20-30 a day for home generated electric without running the A/C.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on September 03, 2014, 03:14:44 PM
Here:
http://ebookee.org/National-Electrical-Code-NFPA-70-2011-Edition_1130552.html

Two links don't work, and the other one wants me to download an executable (lulz no - plus I'm using Linux anyways).

Ultimately, the issue isn't ultimately with the NFPA-70 - I'll take your word for what it says.

The issues that I brought up in response to your article about the lineman still linger unanswered, as well as my subsequent recommendation about disconnecting buildings on the circuit.

To start, you claim that the homeowner was negligent, regardless of whether the backfeed (and subsequent death of the lineman) was due to the homeowner not opening the main breaker or there was a material defect with the breaker after the homeowner believed he had opened it, because NFPA-70 wasn't followed.

This assertion could not be farther from the truth.

In this case, we can safely assume that four out of the five elements of a negligence case were met:

Duty - Reasonable man standard would indicate that a generator back feeding into the grid could pose a threat to the lineman. This I will not dispute.
Cause in fact - I also won't dispute the fact that the backfeeding generator was the cause of the linemans death.
Proximate cause - Again, something I wouldn't dispute. Assuming the breaker wasn't opened, I would argue that the defendant would have foreseen the potential damages from backfeeding the generator.
Damages - Obviously the lineman is dead.

However, there is one element that still needs to be determined - Breach of duty.

This is where it needs to be known whether the homeowner actually tried opening the breaker and it failed due to material defect, or whether the homeowner didn't try opening the breaker.

If the homeowner didn't try opening the breaker, discounting my other argument that linemen should disconnect service to buildings before conducting work, then sure, I can see there being a breach of duty, subsequently meeting all five elements of a negligence case.

However, if he tried opening the breaker, but it failed due to material defect, I argue that there was no breach of duty. Reasonable man standard would indicate that when you open a breaker, there should be a disconnection of the circuit. If it were not the case that an open breaker would disconnect a circuit, then short of physically disconnecting service to the building, how would one perform electrical work within a building?

NFPA-70 might come in to play if the guy was an electrician, but even then, there are probably arguments could be made by the electrician(and/or his attorney) why said document doesn't apply.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: part deux on September 03, 2014, 03:47:35 PM
However, there is one element that still needs to be determined - Breach of duty.

Spend the money to do it properly.  I installed this, it was super duper easy
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-30-Amp-10-Circuit-Manual-Transfer-Switch-Kit-31410CRK/202214969

Actual usage can't be any easier.. and safe.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: SteveS on September 03, 2014, 03:52:55 PM
In this case, we can safely assume that four out of the five elements of a negligence case were met:

Duty - Reasonable man standard would indicate that a generator back feeding into the grid could pose a threat to the lineman. This I will not dispute.
Cause in fact - I also won't dispute the fact that the backfeeding generator was the cause of the linemans death.
Proximate cause - Again, something I wouldn't dispute. Assuming the breaker wasn't opened, I would argue that the defendant would have foreseen the potential damages from backfeeding the generator.
Damages - Obviously the lineman is dead.

However, there is one element that still needs to be determined - Breach of duty.

This is where it needs to be known whether the homeowner actually tried opening the breaker and it failed due to material defect, or whether the homeowner didn't try opening the breaker.

If the homeowner didn't try opening the breaker, discounting my other argument that linemen should disconnect service to buildings before conducting work, then sure, I can see there being a breach of duty, subsequently meeting all five elements of a negligence case.

However, if he tried opening the breaker, but it failed due to material defect, I argue that there was no breach of duty. Reasonable man standard would indicate that when you open a breaker, there should be a disconnection of the circuit. If it were not the case that an open breaker would disconnect a circuit, then short of physically disconnecting service to the building, how would one perform electrical work within a building?

NFPA-70 might come in to play if the guy was an electrician, but even then, there are probably arguments could be made by the electrician(and/or his attorney) why said document doesn't apply.

I think this is a pretty good analysis. Another thing to consider is whether the accident was foreseeable.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: tedalton on September 03, 2014, 05:41:24 PM
Hey Pat turned out that AC unit is an amps hog on start so we hooked it up to the load dump control on the transfer switch.
This is the situation where I don't like Generac's load shedding.  There is no way to "lock out" a load.  What happens is:
If an overload is detected it disconnects all shedable loads for five minutes, then it starts load one, after 30 seconds it connects load two.  same for three, and four.  If at any point it detects an overload it starts again except it stops before the previous "higher" load.  eg. if three causes an overload it stops at two on the next try.  Here's where the problem comes in (imo) it tries again after 30 min.  So what will happen is, it will try to start the A/C every half hour, which is all well and good, but if you know it will not start the A/C there is no point in trying.
The easiest solution I've found is to use a simple "ice cube" relay with a 240v coil wired to the N1 and N2 with the normally open contacts wired in series with the A/C control wire.  If utility drops out it opens the A/C control circuit and the A/C cannot try to start.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on September 07, 2014, 03:22:03 AM
Two links don't work, and the other one wants me to download an executable (lulz no - plus I'm using Linux anyways).

Ultimately, the issue isn't ultimately with the NFPA-70 - I'll take your word for what it says.

The issues that I brought up in response to your article about the lineman still linger unanswered, as well as my subsequent recommendation about disconnecting buildings on the circuit.

To start, you claim that the homeowner was negligent, regardless of whether the backfeed (and subsequent death of the lineman) was due to the homeowner not opening the main breaker or there was a material defect with the breaker after the homeowner believed he had opened it, because NFPA-70 wasn't followed.

This assertion could not be farther from the truth.

In this case, we can safely assume that four out of the five elements of a negligence case were met:

Duty - Reasonable man standard would indicate that a generator back feeding into the grid could pose a threat to the lineman. This I will not dispute.
Cause in fact - I also won't dispute the fact that the backfeeding generator was the cause of the linemans death.
Proximate cause - Again, something I wouldn't dispute. Assuming the breaker wasn't opened, I would argue that the defendant would have foreseen the potential damages from backfeeding the generator.
Damages - Obviously the lineman is dead.

However, there is one element that still needs to be determined - Breach of duty.

This is where it needs to be known whether the homeowner actually tried opening the breaker and it failed due to material defect, or whether the homeowner didn't try opening the breaker.

If the homeowner didn't try opening the breaker, discounting my other argument that linemen should disconnect service to buildings before conducting work, then sure, I can see there being a breach of duty, subsequently meeting all five elements of a negligence case.

However, if he tried opening the breaker, but it failed due to material defect, I argue that there was no breach of duty. Reasonable man standard would indicate that when you open a breaker, there should be a disconnection of the circuit. If it were not the case that an open breaker would disconnect a circuit, then short of physically disconnecting service to the building, how would one perform electrical work within a building?

NFPA-70 might come in to play if the guy was an electrician, but even then, there are probably arguments could be made by the electrician(and/or his attorney) why said document doesn't apply.

There weren't any lingering questions in the minds of the jury that convicted the killers. So I guess they thought the so called "accident" was foreseeable.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on September 07, 2014, 09:26:15 AM
There weren't any lingering questions in the minds of the jury that convicted the killers. So I guess they thought the so called "accident" was foreseeable.

That means you have a link to a follow article then, correct? Because I've been having a hell of a time finding a follow up article, and it looks like link to the original is dead.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: CV67PAT on September 08, 2014, 12:20:06 AM
That means you have a link to a follow article then, correct? Because I've been having a hell of a time finding a follow up article, and it looks like link to the original is dead.
The link worked fine for me when I copied and pasted the information from it and referenced the source. And I'm not a computer genius. I'm just a stupid electrician that knows how to properly wire standby generators to prevent death or serious injury to lineman.

ETA: I'm done playing.
Title: Re: Power Outage.
Post by: jgillmanjr on September 08, 2014, 07:37:13 AM
The link worked fine for me when I copied and pasted the information from it and referenced the source. And I'm not a computer genius. I'm just a stupid electrician that knows how to properly wire standby generators to prevent death or serious injury to lineman.

ETA: I'm done playing.

I read the original. The mention about the original link was commentary. However, the fact you say he was convicted would mean that there must have been a follow up article mentioning that.

So, source?