Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

General Category => Off Topic Stuff => Topic started by: birddseedd on July 16, 2014, 11:40:21 PM

Title: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 16, 2014, 11:40:21 PM
One thing that i came to know after i started carrying is that it is illegal to carry a knife in a sheath. perhaps above a certain length or something, i dont recall. else sheathed small knives just arnt enforced. but this law is just absured. its dangerous. and does more harm than good. a sheath is obvious, and is not concealment. but yet they expect you to put yourself and others in danger to abide by their own fear mongering foolishness.

i will likely conceal my firearm when doing so, as a guy with several visible weapons moves away from a guy protecting himself into tinfoil hat land.

As an obvious protest, where and how would this best be accomplished? in a visible place, not likely to have many children, but still open enough to keep a safe distance from folks.

Knife is probably about a foot and a quarter long, hilt to tip. almost 2' with handle.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: CV67PAT on July 17, 2014, 05:41:30 AM
Knife laws are not preempted. Any knife could possibly be unlawful to carry in certain communities and venues. And if a person is carrying a gun at the same time, severe problems may arise.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 08:16:04 AM
Local municipalities ordinances are civil?
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 08:18:03 AM
I think knives should be covered under the 2nd amendment since at the time they were used in war more than guns. All be it attached to a gun.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: SD40VE on July 17, 2014, 08:36:35 AM
i carry a machete up north for clearing the hunting trails before hunting season
of course its on private property
Title: Re: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Glock9mmOldStyle on July 17, 2014, 10:26:45 AM
Knife laws are not preempted. Any knife could possibly be unlawful to carry in certain communities and venues. And if a person is carrying a gun at the same time, severe problems may arise.

THIS^^

Better to leave it at home when OCing. Why? Makes it really easy on shady PD's to hassle a otherwise legal OCer. If you really want to carry a knife, work with others to get knife preemption laws passed in MI. There's a reason most cities and villages have knife laws on the books, just as they still have outdated gun laws on their books. It is just one more thing a "bonus" local charge/violation to be hurled at someone who they don't like. Many local PD's don't like OCers, so you do the math.

My mind goes back to a member Fatman/Chuckwagon, who carried a pocket knife while OCing. He got jammed up in Southgate MI, while at a restaurant with his family. One of the local OEO's (opinion enforcement officers) took issue with his OC. Not being able to do anything about it legally, the officer noted a "suspicious bulge" in his front pocket & searched him for "officer safety". Turned out to be a very small pocket knife, that which many MI men carry daily. No matter, this was enough for the officer to arrest him, and take him to jail for a short while until bail could be posted. Bogus? Yes. Technically legal? Yes. The judge tossed the concealed weapon charge on the basis that the search was based on the legal activity of OCing, therefore, fruit of the poisonous tree.

My point - is carrying a $10 - ?? Dollar knife worth the thousands of dollars it could take to defend against "technically legal" charges brought by a "OEO"?

In the end Fatman sued them, and won a small settlement. Was it worth the hassle and time lost from work and family? Only he can answer that.

As always YMMV, you maybe a lawyer, with infinite time on your hands to file legal actions.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 10:30:05 AM
Ymmv?
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 10:33:45 AM
The problem is with mi law. Although I do agree that any law that deals with weapons should be preempted
Title: Re: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Glock9mmOldStyle on July 17, 2014, 10:49:31 AM
Ymmv?

Your milage may vary..

More slang from the cool kids, like NutNFancy off YouTube.

Don't mean this badly, but your posts always get my "troll alert" buzzing.
Title: Re: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Glock9mmOldStyle on July 17, 2014, 10:54:22 AM
The problem is with mi law. Although I do agree that any law that deals with weapons should be preempted

Yep. Preemption is the key. AZ has good knife preemption on the books. It should be a template for MI knife preemption, IMHO. (In My Honest Opinion).
Title: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: TheQ on July 17, 2014, 11:08:18 AM

Knife laws are not preempted. Any knife could possibly be unlawful to carry in certain communities and venues. And if a person is carrying a gun at the same time, severe problems may arise.

And that's all you need to know about knives. The City of Center Line, IIRC, bans the carry of any knife in public, regardless of length or purpose.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 11:09:31 AM
Wow
Title: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: TheQ on July 17, 2014, 11:09:51 AM

I think knives should be covered under the 2nd amendment since at the time they were used in war more than guns. All be it attached to a gun.

It's an interesting argument. It might fly, it might not. Willing to chance it? Got the lawyer fees ($2,500 - $30,000) to fight it?
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 11:17:17 AM
technically if they are going to do a jail sentence they have to give me a lawyer the question is is the lawyer good enough to actually accomplish change
Title: Re: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Glock9mmOldStyle on July 17, 2014, 11:29:56 AM
technically if they are going to do a jail sentence they have to give me a lawyer the question is is the lawyer good enough to actually accomplish change

You are not given anything, you will be charged for and forced to pay a crappy lawyer for crappy service. Do as you will, but be advised, often there is little "just" in our justice system, and you will be held financially responsible, period! Innocence or guilt, is a after thought. Good luck! Looks like you may need it.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: gryphon on July 17, 2014, 11:44:44 AM
Yep, you will be billed for your public defender.
Title: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: TheQ on July 17, 2014, 12:07:45 PM

technically if they are going to do a jail sentence they have to give me a lawyer the question is is the lawyer good enough to actually accomplish change

They have to provide you with council, if you can't afford it (they have a formula to figure out if you can afford it). Court appointed lawyers will advice you to plea the case out as quickly as possible and will give you the crappiest defense and do as little as they can get away with ....

.....but it's your life and property. Your decision.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Scandiacus on July 17, 2014, 12:26:07 PM
The City of Center Line, IIRC, bans the carry of any knife in public, regardless of length or purpose.

There are a number of cities in Michigan with similar rules.  It's technically illegal to carry a knife in Jackson, period, though I can't say how well that's enforced; I would certainly be cautious of it when OCing a firearm.  From the city ordinance (emphasis mine):
Quote
A dangerous weapon means a weapon, other than a firearm, such as a knife, razor, taser, self-defense spray, gas-ejecting device, club, bludgeon, or other similar item.

It is unlawful to transport, carry, or possess a dangerous weapon in any vehicle or public place unless it is done under any of the following conditions:

The conditions listed only cover on personal property, transporting encased weapons from purchase location to home, etc.  I carry a knife daily, but always have to alter my routine a bit when I'm in Jackson, particularly when OCing.  It's similarly bad over by Detroit, where blade length restrictions seem to change arbitrarily from township to township.  Michigan needs knife preemption badly; I've been told that AKTI has plans to get such a bill introduced in Michigan next legislative session, so be sure to prod your reps and senators about it when the time comes.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 12:30:51 PM
There is injustice in our courts because Americans no longer fight against injustice. People hate their government, but live too uncomfortably to do anything about it
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 12:35:09 PM
There are a number of cities in Michigan with similar rules.  It's technically illegal to carry a knife in Jackson, period, though I can't say how well that's enforced; I would certainly be cautious of it when OCing a firearm.  From the city ordinance (emphasis mine):
The conditions listed only cover on personal property, transporting encased weapons from purchase location to home, etc.  I carry a knife daily, but always have to alter my routine a bit when I'm in Jackson, particularly when OCing.  It's similarly bad over by Detroit, where blade length restrictions seem to change arbitrarily from township to township.  Michigan needs knife preemption badly; I've been told that AKTI has plans to get such a bill introduced in Michigan next legislative session, so be sure to prod your reps and senators about it when the time comes.

Who is AKTI? That sound like a good start. I should wait to see what happens with that.

And then after carry a huge *** blade until they make it legal to put it in a sheath
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Scandiacus on July 17, 2014, 01:18:33 PM
AKTI is the American Knife and Tool Institute (akti.org).  They are a knife rights advocacy group.  Think NRA, but for knives, and less influential.

I don't know what you're talking about in regard to legally carrying a knife in a sheath.  Under Michigan's state law, there is no restriction on the open or concealed carry of folding knives, regardless of whether they're carried in a sheath or pocket.  Carrying a blade with length greater than 3" with unlawful intent is illegal, but otherwise there is no length restriction.  As far as fixed blades and concealment, my understanding is that MCL 750.227 is generally interpreted to apply to double-edged fixed blades, and may apply to to single edged fixed blades as well, depending on how your prosecutor is feeling.  Open carry of fixed blades is permitted outside of a vehicle, in a sheath or otherwise, and concealed carry is permitted when actively engaged in hunting.  Unfortunately, a CPL does not extend to concealment of knives.  Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so if someone out there knows better, please say so.

If asked, NEVER tell a LEO your knife is for self-defense.  Knives - even big ones - are not a great choice for self defense anyway (especially if you lack significant hand-to-hand combat training) and are at best a last ditch backup to your gun.

Obviously, this is the state law and may vary from town to town.  Below is a link to various local knife laws courtesy of handgunlaw.us, but understand that it may not be all-inclusive or 100% accurate.  Go to municode or individual township/city offices for a more accurate reading of the various ordinances.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Divegeek on July 17, 2014, 01:34:35 PM
Yep, you will be billed for your public defender.

Last I knew Lenawee county charge $40 an hour for public defenders. Some aren't worth $25 and hour and some are a bargain at $40. It's just luck of the draw.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 01:54:52 PM
What's the point of know restrictions anyway? I can carry a gun. I can carry it in schools, theaters, banks, businesses, public and even in my own home. When under attack I can use that gun. I can kill someone with that gun. Just as long as I don't use a knife.

Seems anti productive to me
Title: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: TheQ on July 17, 2014, 02:41:38 PM

What's the point of know restrictions anyway? I can carry a gun. I can carry it in schools, theaters, banks, businesses, public and even in my own home. When under attack I can use that gun. I can kill someone with that gun. Just as long as I don't use a knife.

Seems anti productive to me

There you go again -- you expect laws to make sense.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 02:56:40 PM
Someone on the internet called me an idealist
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Jeff on July 17, 2014, 05:06:45 PM
When are you not allowed to use a knife in self defense, I thought you just can't have the intention to carry it for the use of self defense.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 05:14:15 PM
From what i recall, you can carry, you can even carry for self defense. what you can not do is carry with a malicious intent or an illegal intent. and i swear i recall it saying that it could not be concealed, even being in a sheath
Title: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: TheQ on July 17, 2014, 05:14:17 PM
@OP Don't you think you've had enough personal excitement while carrying this year?


Looking to add more to it? Can you afford the legal headaches? Maybe more media attention...
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 05:17:31 PM
well.

if i leave my firearm locked in the truck, i won't get quite the same attention.

but as mentioned above, there is a group working on some of the knife laws. something that would be a bit more important, so ill hold off on anything other than discussion until i see what happens with them. being that state level only gun laws are a popular thing for Michigan, i can see them doing the same for knives, i hope anyway. that will give me some time to lay low for a while. not that i don't always try to lay low, problem is, i don't give a pet crow's rear end what other people think.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: part deux on July 17, 2014, 05:24:23 PM
http://www.kniferights.org/
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: gryphon on July 17, 2014, 05:32:47 PM
HB4262 passed the House overwhelmingly but hasn't gone anywhere in the Senate.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2013-HB-4262
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 05:47:06 PM
So according to that law, you can carry and conceal a knife, as long as its not double edged, and you don't intend to kill someone with it. this sound correct, as far as this act goes?

wonder what law i read/missread
Title: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: TheQ on July 17, 2014, 05:59:18 PM

So according to that law, you can carry and conceal a knife, as long as its not double edged, and you don't intend to kill someone with it. this sound correct, as far as this act goes?

wonder what law i read/missread

Don't forget: no preemption! That is huge.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 17, 2014, 06:01:20 PM
well. yes. i think anything that is common to do wherever you are at needs to be preemption. anything you do, cross the street, and become a felon is bad.

but as far as concealing and or sheathing, nothing in this act/new act is against it?
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Scandiacus on July 17, 2014, 09:04:28 PM
When are you not allowed to use a knife in self defense, I thought you just can't have the intention to carry it for the use of self defense.

You can absolutely carry and use one for self-defense legally, but what you don't want to do is tell a LEO you're carrying it for that.  Doing so admits it's a weapon, and thanks to some case law surrounding knives, a knife is considered a dangerous weapon if it is carried with the intention of using it as a weapon, even if that knife is only a little pen knife.  At that point you have a problem if the knife is at all concealed.  Better to say your EDC blade is for opening packages and picking your teeth.  Better still not to answer a LEO's questions about your knife in the first place.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Jeff on July 17, 2014, 09:09:16 PM
This knife? I just use it to pick my nose...do you honestly expect me to stick my finger up there officer? That's just gross.

This knife? It's medical.  In case I need to cut off a pant leg to make a tourniquet.  (I had no clue how to spell that word....THANKS GOOGLE!!!!!)
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Scandiacus on July 17, 2014, 09:14:02 PM
HB4262 passed the House overwhelmingly but hasn't gone anywhere in the Senate.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2013-HB-4262

I spoke with some senators about HB4262 a few months ago.  It has been decided that the bill will die in committee, as apparently Gov. Snyder has made clear he doesn't want any more weapons bills of that sort coming across his desk this session.  Hopefully the bill will be reintroduced next session, but this is the second session it will have died in committee.  All it would have done is clear up some legal phrasing, making it clearly legal to conceal a single-edged fixed blade (double-edged still a no-no), as well as adding fishing, trapping, occupation, and hobby exemptions for concealment.  It would not have allowed for concealment with a CPL, would not legalize switchblades (as last session's bill would have done), and would not have added preemption.

There won't be any progress on knife laws until 2015 at the earliest.

This knife? It's medical.  In case I need to cut off a pant leg to make a tourniquet.  (I had no clue how to spell that word....THANKS GOOGLE!!!!!)

Totally just medical, officer!  It's for performing emergency tracheotomies on people who are choking... or for performing tactical "tracheotomies" on assailants....
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Jeff on July 17, 2014, 09:17:40 PM
or for performing tactical "tracheotomies" on assailants....

OMG, greatest thing I heard all week lol

It would be better if I wasn't just depressed about Snynder's RINO dipsh__ A__ F___ C___ S______ P____ O_ S___



ROFL AGAIN!!!...... "Tactical Tracheotomies on assailants" I can't stop laughing. 
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Shadow Bear on July 18, 2014, 01:33:03 PM
Someone on the internet called me an idealist

I think you spelled it wrong.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 18, 2014, 01:36:23 PM
possibly, i am not a very strong speller.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: CV67PAT on July 18, 2014, 11:56:55 PM
Someone on the internet called me an idealist

I think you spelled it wrong.

I know he spelled it wrong. :coocoo: :rotfl:
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 20, 2014, 10:50:10 AM
Google says it's spelled correct
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: CV67PAT on July 20, 2014, 12:01:02 PM
Heeeeez baaaaaack.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Jeff on July 20, 2014, 12:04:46 PM
Google says it's spelled correct

It was FAR from correct.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: CV67PAT on July 20, 2014, 12:05:58 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=idiot
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: birddseedd on July 20, 2014, 12:25:28 PM
It was FAR from correct.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/idealist
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: CV67PAT on July 20, 2014, 12:33:21 PM
dictionary.reference.com/browse/idealist
keeps coming up wrong for me. You must be spelling the word wrong when you put it in the search box.
Try spelling it right when you enter it:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=idiot
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: gryphon on July 20, 2014, 12:38:44 PM
Alright, guys, you've made your point.  Have a little charity.  Let's not eat our own, especially a new guy who isn't trying to be purposefully disruptive.  Remember, our goal is to be helpful.
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: Jeff on July 20, 2014, 01:58:42 PM
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink019.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

nom nom nom
Title: Re: I think im going to start carrying a huge *** knife
Post by: SD40VE on July 23, 2014, 03:26:16 PM
 :popcorn:
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink019.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

nom nom nom

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: