Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigt8261 on January 28, 2014, 12:04:34 PM
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I was notified that Mayor Heartwell reacted to our recent seminar this morning.
Since last we met as a City Commission – according to the online resource Wikipedia – there have been nine school shootings, and at least one movie theatre and one mall shooting in the United States. If that pace continues it will outstrip last year’s reported 31 school shootings. Since January 1, 2000, there have been a reported 119 school shootings in the (United States). How could we forget the 6-year-old boy in Flint who brought his uncle’s gun to school and killed his little 6-year-old classmate because, as he said, “I don’t like her.”
In Grand Rapids there have been 23 reports of gunshots and 3 shooting victims since January 1.
There have been uncounted numbers of suicides by gun in the country since last we met, but, if averages hold up, then 1,119 people have turned their guns on themselves and taken their lives in the last three weeks. Just over half of all suicides are by gun.
There is estimated to be 310 million guns in this country. That is one gun for every man, woman and child in the nation, save 9 million. Many of those guns are owned by unstable people or are owned by others in the homes of unstable people in which guns are readily available. The Congress of the United States has failed its responsibility to protect us from those dangerous and mentally unstable people. Every American citizen is at risk today because of our lax and irresponsible gun laws. We even had an illustration in our neighboring community of Lowell of two licensed gun carriers drawing on each other after a road rage incident. Both are dead.
I sit in our City Commission meeting week after week anxious and frightened because a civilian with a gun is in this chamber. I know that he can kill me, and probably others at this table or in these chambers, before the police officer in the rear of the room can react. Carrying a gun always, always represents the threat to use that gun to kill or maim another. That, after all, is why these people carry their guns.
Now the gun advocates want to “desensitize” the community to open carry. The more guns we see, they say, the less we will fear them or the people carrying them. Well, I will never be desensitized and God help us all if society accepts those bullying tactics as the norm.
I urge all citizens who feel as I do to take action. Arm yourselves with the righteousness of our position. If you see an armed person come into a store or restaurant, alert others and leave the establishment. If you see an armed person in a shopping mall or movie theatre, alert security and leave the building. If you see an armed person approaching a school, call the police. You see we can never know what that individual’s intention may be. We must always err on the side of public safety rather than regretting later, when people are dead, that we didn’t act.
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OMG, Heartwell is a woman! And a weak one at that. BTW where did he say this?
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Congress has also failed to protect us from people who say, do, and believe things with which we disagree.
There is a very good reason for this, it's called natural rights that are recognized by the Bill of Rights.
He does have a point that if we carry a gun, it is because we are prepared to use it. However, he assumes that those who carry a gun are somehow under its influence and have no free will to use it for good.
Hartwell just has a long winded way of saying, "You can't make me change, so there! :P"
He seems to believe that the magic power of a LEO's uniform is the only thing that counters the evil influence of a gun.
The magical thinking of those who are anti-gun (more like anti-gun for civilians), is striking. Most of them, in my experience, are the kind of "liberal" who claim to want evidence for everything, but this idea that a gun is inherently bad has a strong hold on them. How to convince them that guns don't have magical powers eludes me. Their minds are made up, don't confuse them with facts; especially facts that counter their point of view.
Since so many anti-gunners think that a gun makes people use them for evil, why aren't more of them being locked up for delusions? Obviously, if they get their hands on a gun, they will be a danger to themselves and others. Isn't that what they are saying?
Pro Gun: Follow the 4 safety rules. Anti Gun: Guns are bad/evil and make people do bad things.
How much of the anti-gun argument can be offset by the gun safety rules?
An emphasis on gun safety would go a long way for accidents and such. Why aren't their public service announcements for gun safety that employ the 4 rules?
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"I sit in our City Commission meeting week after week anxious and frightened because a civilian with a gun is in this chamber. I know that he can kill me, and probably others at this table or in these chambers, before the police officer in the rear of the room can react. Carrying a gun always, always represents the threat to use that gun to kill or maim another. That, after all, is why these people carry their guns."
"these people"
"what do you mean you people!!!"
" If you see an armed person in a shopping mall or movie theatre, alert security and leave the building. If you see an armed person approaching a school, call the police."
seriosuly? this guy has issues...
he never mentions the times when citizen intervention with a handgun has saved lives. imagine the guy in alabama who took the family dollar hostage? were there not a CPL carrying person that could have been a huge murder spree.
im thinking he has special interests in his pocket and thats why he is so intolerant of LAC's with firearms
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OMG, Heartwell is a woman! And a weak one at that. BTW where did he say this?
Tuesday mornings on Commission meeting days the commission meets to discuss business in a less formal setting. They are open meetings.
I'm guessing if he said it there.
Strangely all of his shootings happened in Gun Free Zones proving that gun laws don't work to stop criminals. Sigh.
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So how many accidents have cars caused in the last year? Does Heartwell walk down the sidewalk dodging behind a tree each time a car drives by? Although he does bring up a good point, a person can cause another human being harm before the police can intervene. I carry because I don't want to use it. It is my last resort. I learned all to well 2 to 3 years ago walking a street in kalamazoo. I was blind sided by someone doing their "knockout game" for an entry into a gang. I always assumed that I wouldn't be a victim cause I am a big guy. It took the cops a while to get there. My saving grace was not the cops (who have not caught the assailant and won't) but were my friends who came running back. I could alone have been jumped by the assailant and a whole group of his "gang". It gets one thinking about their safety and how prepared they can be went it hits the fan.
On another note, Mr Heartwell worked for Aquinas College. Why is he quoting Wikipedia when we all know high learning institutions do not recognize Wikipedia as a credible source?
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Strangely all of his shootings happened in Gun Free Zones proving that gun laws don't work to stop criminals. Sigh.
I have decided I will not bring up that "GFZ's" and shootings prove the laws don't work. (well they do work in the case of allowing a defenseless shooting)
I am now only saying to people that it is too that bad by law or rule someone with a gun couldn't be there to protect and or prevent...... I figure we as gun owners should "spin" it to better our position. Anyone else have a way of Spinning?
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OMG, Heartwell is a woman! And a weak one at that. BTW where did he say this?
I have two women in my life who are very near and dear to me that are both gun owners....
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I have two women in my life who are very near and dear to me that are both gun owners....
Which is why i added "weak ones at that" I have met your wife, nothing weak about her. My wife owns a gun as well, she is also not weak.
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Which is why i added "weak ones at that" I have met your wife, nothing weak about her. My wife owns a gun as well, she is also not weak.
I feel for you Raggs. i had a feeling someone might bring this up.
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Naturally, I will be working on a response for tonight's public Commission meeting. Which is at 7pm at City Hall, BTW.
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Knock yourselves out.
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_22.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_22.html)
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Naturally, I will be working on a response for tonight's public Commission meeting. Which is at 7pm at City Hall, BTW.
Be sure to bring George an extra pair of depends
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Be sure to bring George an extra pair of depends
Not able to go?
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Not able to go?
That or I can't afford to buy depends for GH
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and i see a vid of tom there. good to put a face to the wisdom
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OMG, Heartwell is a woman! And a weak one at that. BTW where did he say this?
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_22.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_22.html)
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http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_22.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_22.html)
TY, But Tom already posted it
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OMG, Heartwell is a woman! And a weak one at that. BTW where did he say this?
That is a blatant sexist remark. And to qualify it with "a weak one at that" further demonstrates a lack of judgement which hampers efforts to attract women into the firearm's community.
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No need for the off color commentary about the mayor, as any comments made on this forum are able to be viewed by anyone and there is no sense in validating any negative perceptions about the open carry crowd.
I'm not a GR resident, nor am I going to be at the meeting tonight, but I do have a question that I would like to see posed to the mayor. The mayor states he is frightened knowing that a resident in the meeting room has a gun, so I wonder if he would be less frightened if he didn't know who in the room may or may not have a gun.
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Okay, I apologize to all the women I offended with my remark calling the esteemed mayor of Grand Rapids a weak woman.
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No need for the off color commentary about the mayor, as any comments made on this forum are able to be viewed by anyone and there is no sense in validating any negative perceptions about the open carry crowd.
I'm not a GR resident, nor am I going to be at the meeting tonight, but I do have a question that I would like to see posed to the mayor. The mayor states he is frightened knowing that a resident in the meeting room has a gun, so I wonder if he would be less frightened if he didn't know who in the room may or may not have a gun.
This is an excellent question. It speaks directly to the purpose that our legislature regulates the concealed carry of firearms. So that we will know who is armed. Thus allowing us the opportunity to avoid such people , if we so desire.
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In the mayors remarks in paragraph 5, he said "civilian" with a gun. That statement may have been more accurate had he said "criminal" with a gun. The same goes for when he said "these people" instead of "these criminals". Those statements are exactly why we need to desensitize the public. According to him, civilians and people are criminals.
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I wonder if he would be less frightened if he didn't know who in the room may or may not have a gun.
I thought the same thing when I read his statements.
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Comments from tonight.
Mayor Heartwell, I would like to take this opportunity to respond to some comments you made earlier today in relation to gun related violence and open carriers. I feel your excessive use of distortions, duplicitous fallacies and ad hominem underscores the lack of strength in what you are attempting to convey.
I have been working for quite some time now to educate, not only those in this chamber, but also the people of Michigan. Much of my focus has been on the lack of the ability of police to protect everyone. As you adequately pointed out, harm can come to someone even with a watchful officer standing ready in the room. Of course, once we expand on that notion we are led down the frightful path of understanding what would happen if a potential victim had to wait even mere seconds, or god forbid, minutes longer for said assistance. If calling 911 and waiting for help to arrive is good enough for everyone else in the city, then why isn’t it good enough for this room?
Though I doubt you will admit it, you have already acknowledged the crime deterring effects of not just guns, but carrying them openly. This is after all, why the GRPD carries their guns openly, and why you have an officer openly carrying his firearm at this very meeting, is it not? As they say, actions speak louder than words and nothing detracts more from your notion of too many guns, than that officer sitting back there at your behest and thanks, with yet another openly carried gun.
Furthermore, in your statements, you pointed to a number of shootings that have occurred so far this year. However, what you failed to mention is that nearly all of them occurred in a “Gun Free Zone”, much like what you wish to turn these chambers into. You also failed to mention all of the lives saved by lawfully armed responders. No one watches a leopard chase down a gazelle and denies that the gazelle has the right to defend itself, but you would seemingly deny that same right to other human beings. You seem to think that the way to stop the leopard is to the cut the horns off the gazelle – that by somehow making it easier for the predator, the predator will somehow go away. This is folly. When you make it easier for the predator, you get more predators, as your “Gun Free Zones” have clearly demonstrated over the past few decades.
On the other hand, we have a very clear inverse trend of the number of guns and gun owners in this country compared to the number of violent firearm related incidents. You are correct that it is estimated that the number of firearms in this country is well over 300 million, but you left out that that number has nearly doubled in the past twenty years. Furthermore, you also left out the fact that related violence has decreased by over two thirds in that same time span.
I have said many times that the facts do not concern you, and once again you have proven me right. In referencing a recent road rage incident in Ionia, you attributed it to “lax and irresponsible gun laws”. The truth, if you had bothered to pay attention, is that one man defended his family from another. From someone who wrongfully had a CPL, because a prosecutor did not charge him properly, and the gun board let the man slide. Would you have preferred the defender leave his family to defend for themselves? When I sat in front of you in your office, I specifically mentioned proper prosecution using the laws we already have, yet you ignored me. I reached out to you with something I thought we could both agree on and it became abundantly clear that it was not public interest that you were putting first and foremost.
My message is and has been a message of education and understanding. Your message is and has been a message of confusion, fear and bigotry. I want more people to know our laws and understand them, where you want others to be confused about our laws and afraid of people such as me without first attempting to understand us. You tell me who the bully is and where the righteousness lies.
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Well done Tom
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Excellent job Tom!
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Very well done, Tom. Excellent as always. You keep getting better and better, or maybe it's just more pointed as time goes on. You've given Heartwell opportunity after opportunity, and he just keeps lying and obfuscating. Good for calling him out on it.
Well done, sir, well done.
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I wonder how the mayor would feel if 15-20 legally armed civilians attended his commission meetings as we did in Birmingham?
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Tom, all I can say is well done. I admit I haven't keeping up on what mayors and politicians have been saying/doing in MI for long but your approach to them is awesome. Now only if a news outlet would report this type of stuff unbiased it would help the cause but I know I'm just dreaming now.
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I wonder how the mayor would feel if 15-20 legally armed civilians attended his commission meetings as we did in Birmingham?
He didn't like it: http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_16.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/01/grand_rapids_mayor_george_hear_16.html)
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What we really need is a Grand Rapids resident to get up and talk. I think that person might carry more weight as a person who has the ability to vote for a commission of a ward and for the mayoral seat.
Awesome message Tom, concise and definitely got your point across. How did they react after you got up to talk?
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Very well done, Tom. Excellent as always. You keep getting better and better, or maybe it's just more pointed as time goes on. You've given Heartwell opportunity after opportunity, and he just keeps lying and obfuscating. Good for calling him out on it.
Well done, sir, well done.
Thanks. There was sooo much more to say, but I only had 3min. I have floated the idea of a debate to a GR Press writer. Though I doubt anything will come of it, we will see.
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What we really need is a Grand Rapids resident to get up and talk. I think that person might carry more weight as a person who has the ability to vote for a commission of a ward and for the mayoral seat.
+1000 here is the Commission meeting schedule http://grcity.us/city-clerk/Documents/City%20Commission%20Meetings%20Annual.pdf (http://grcity.us/city-clerk/Documents/City%20Commission%20Meetings%20Annual.pdf)
Awesome message Tom, concise and definitely got your point across. How did they react after you got up to talk?
One of the Commissioners said the Mayor was doing a find job.
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Tom, as others have said great job.
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Ask and I shall receive I suppose.
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/gun_advocate_responds_to_mayor.html#incart_river_default (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/gun_advocate_responds_to_mayor.html#incart_river_default)
Comments on M-Live never cease to amaze me. How can people be so willing to lay down any right to self defense just because it "scares" them or other people?
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"Next time Sam Jones Darling (an LGBT advocate who frequents commission meetings) is here, why don’t you ask him how righteous his detractors claim to be."
???
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"Next time Sam Jones Darling (an LGBT advocate who frequents commission meetings) is here, why don’t you ask him how righteous his detractors claim to be."
???
Mr. Darling has attended many meetings in the past and has been well received by the Commission. The Commission is very liberal and thus very interested in what Mr. Darling has to say. I didn't write the comment out because I didn't plan on saying it until I was finished with my written comments and was about to walk away. My intent was to provide them with some perspective.
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*starts the roaring chant*
tom....tom....tom....tom...tom....GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
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Where are the gun stores, gun ranges, FFL dealers? Those are the people that can make a real difference.
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+1000 here is the Commission meeting schedule http://grcity.us/city-clerk/Documents/City%20Commission%20Meetings%20Annual.pdf (http://grcity.us/city-clerk/Documents/City%20Commission%20Meetings%20Annual.pdf)
One of the Commissioners said the Mayor was doing a find job.
Will have to see if I can get some time off from work. I'll keep you posted.
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TTAG has picked up on this, but they are over a day behind. I caught them up. ;D
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/robert-farago/grand-rapids-mayor-george-heartwell-anxious-and-frightened-by-armed-citizen/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/robert-farago/grand-rapids-mayor-george-heartwell-anxious-and-frightened-by-armed-citizen/)
Tom, you should email Farago (publisher) at TTAG and maybe give him a short synopsis of what's been going on. He'll publish it.
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UPDATE: TTAG is creating a separate thread on your response, Tom. Should be online any minute!
UPDATE: It's gone live! Nice pic of Tom, too.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/robert-farago/open-carry-advocate-responds-grand-rapids-mayor-george-heartwells-pro-gun-control-statement-city-council/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/robert-farago/open-carry-advocate-responds-grand-rapids-mayor-george-heartwells-pro-gun-control-statement-city-council/)
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i enjoy reading these stories for the comments. usually a couple really good ones in there. thankfully detroit cops are not anti gun nor are the sheriff's out where i live. ive had them come up to me while walking around my town in summer OC and ask how im doing, have normal conversation, and not have to worry about being harrassed. its amazing what happens when LEO are properly informed of the laws or lack of law stating something is prohibited.
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Detroit cops, not anti-gun? Really? You should talk to Rick Ector...
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thankfully detroit cops are not anti gun nor are the sheriff's out where i live. ive had them come up to me while walking around my town in summer OC and ask how im doing, have normal conversation,
Them having a nice conversation with you is their way of checking out the guy open carrying.
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Them having a nice conversation with you is their way of checking out the guy open carrying.
This is correct. Investigative techniques.
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most of the sheriff by me know me, they have been serving my community for many years and watched me grow up so to speak. they know my views and know i know the laws. they aslo know i do not go around breaking the law. there have been a few times people call in when im out and about, they usually come and let me know some concerned old lady called in and they have to file a report and what not. never have i been treated like mr deffert. they are always really nice and i understand they have to investigate any calls they get sent on. their operators are trained in how to handle "man with a gun" calls but sometimes they still get dispatched. they respect my rights and i in turn am forthcoming with information. granted i know i am not obligated to give any information but my relationship with the LEO's here have been a positive one and a respectful one so if it gets them o their way quicker to give them my id and let them copy down some numbers and my name for their report. by all means. this is the choice i make and do not wish to be ridiculed for co-operating with law enforcement. outside of my community where i do not know the deputies or leo's i put on the normal routine
am i being detained?
no?
have a good day. walk away
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Detroit cops, not anti-gun? Really? You should talk to Rick Ector...
not to be a dbag and pull the race card. but it is possible because i am white they treat me different. i have been involved with traffic stops where i have been treated 100% different than my african american friends by the same cop, people say race isnt an issue but i have experiences that say otherwise
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most of the sheriff by me know me, they have been serving my community for many years and watched me grow up so to speak. they know my views and know i know the laws. they aslo know i do not go around breaking the law. there have been a few times people call in when im out and about, they usually come and let me know some concerned old lady called in and they have to file a report and what not. never have i been treated like mr deffert. they are always really nice and i understand they have to investigate any calls they get sent on. their operators are trained in how to handle "man with a gun" calls but sometimes they still get dispatched. they respect my rights and i in turn am forthcoming with information. granted i know i am not obligated to give any information but my relationship with the LEO's here have been a positive one and a respectful one so if it gets them o their way quicker to give them my id and let them copy down some numbers and my name for their report. by all means. this is the choice i make and do not wish to be ridiculed for co-operating with law enforcement. outside of my community where i do not know the deputies or leo's i put on the normal routine
am i being detained?
no?
have a good day. walk away
So a database of encounters with you has been established? For what purpose?
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Detroit cops, not anti-gun? Really? You should talk to Rick Ector...
Or Cmdr-Iceman.
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So a database of encounters with you has been established? For what purpose?
honestly the occurances are so spaced apart i dont see it having any negative impact on me. but you are right, they stock pile the encounters and can use it against me in the future. i dont see any of the sheriffs by me becoming dbags over night, but could cause issues outside of my area. "we see here you have been contacted by the macomb county sheriff over a dozen times for carrying your firearm" although there really isnt anything they can do about it without violating my rights as i do not break any laws when i lawfully carry my pistol.
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honestly the occurances are so spaced apart i dont see it having any negative impact on me. but you are right, they stock pile the encounters and can use it against me in the future. i dont see any of the sheriffs by me becoming dbags over night, but could cause issues outside of my area. "we see here you have been contacted by the macomb county sheriff over a dozen times for carrying your firearm" although there really isnt anything they can do about it without violating my rights as i do not break any laws when i lawfully carry my pistol.
"The police have responded to over a dozen complaints about the subject."
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most of the sheriff by me know me, they have been serving my community for many years and watched me grow up so to speak. they know my views and know i know the laws. they aslo know i do not go around breaking the law.
Doesn't mean this couldn't happen to you one day. I know this happened in Texas, but the same principle applies to all law enforcement IMO.
The officers took cover behind their car doors, weapons drawn and pointed at them, demanding all three get facedown on the ground. Joey asked if they were being detained and was answered with another demand to get face down. One of the responding officers, Rusty Stewart, then called Joey by name and demanded he get down. They had been friends for years; he knew who Joey was and knew he was not a threat.
http://www.dontcomply.com/stand-with-joey-posey-he-stood-for-us-now-its-our-turn/ (http://www.dontcomply.com/stand-with-joey-posey-he-stood-for-us-now-its-our-turn/)
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when my rights get violated i will seek legal council. until then i have to assume the police know the laws. the fact that they may or may not do something will not change how i choose to carry my firearms.
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when my rights get violated i will seek legal council. until then i have to assume the police know the laws. the fact that they may or may not do something will not change how i choose to carry my firearms.
Nobody is questioning how you carry your firearms.
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Nobody is questioning how you carry your firearms.
never said you were sir. never said anyone was, just stating that police reactions will not prevent me from proudly open carrying my sidearm