Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
Open Carry Specific => OC Questions => Topic started by: stevejones370 on June 26, 2012, 12:03:24 AM
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I was asking a LEO friend the other day about his opinion on OC. He had the same feelings as most cops I've talked to about it. His basic feelings were I didnt need to walk around with a gun and so on. I didn't argue with him as I asked for his opinion. I did mention that I dont have to provide ID as long as im not commiting a crime. I told him I mainly open carry while i night fish in a bad neighborhood. We went back and forth on this then he had me stumped. What if I am asked for my fishing license while OCing? Do I have to provide that to a regular LEO?
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I was asking a LEO friend the other day about his opinion on OC. He had the same feelings as most cops I've talked to about it. His basic feelings were I didnt need to walk around with a gun and so on. I didn't argue with him as I asked for his opinion. I did mention that I dont have to provide ID as long as im not commiting a crime. I told him I mainly open carry while i night fish in a bad neighborhood. We went back and forth on this then he had me stumped. What if I am asked for my fishing license while OCing? Do I have to provide that to a regular LEO?
While fishing? You must provide it, if so.
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As Pat said you must provide it while fishing or while performing any other licensed activity wherein the license states you must have ID on you.
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If you're fishing and openly carrying in a boat you must disclose that you are carrying and have a CPL. You do have a CPL (if you're on a boat), right?
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I am only OC while shore fishing. Thanks for the quick response and for clearing this up.
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This is a little off-topic, but I don't believe there is an obligation to disclose an unconcealed pistol carried in a vehicle.
Per 750.227:
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
This establishes unconcealed vehicular carry as distinct from concealed vehicular carry.
Per 28.425f:
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
This specifies that one need only disclose only if carrying concealed, regardless of whether a vehicle is involved.
That said, disclosing when not necessary may not be a bad idea, and different people will have different ideas of where to draw the line between concealed and otherwise.
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I wouldn't chance it. Good luck convincing a judge of your interpretation.
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There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a
vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or
otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who
transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where
he or she intends to “open carry” may be in
violation of MCL.750.227 --- From Legal Update 86
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There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a
vehicle. An individual, without a CPL or
otherwise exempted (e.g., a police officer), who
transports a pistol in a vehicle to an area where
he or she intends to “open carry” may be in
violation of MCL.750.227 --- From Legal Update 86
Technically, it could be argued "carried otherwise" (neither open or concealed)....which was the angle he was arguing for. I wouldn't do it....I'd still disclose about my gun and my CPL, if I was carrying.
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This is a little off-topic, but I don't believe there is an obligation to disclose an unconcealed pistol carried in a vehicle.
His first question is about a gun in the car. Again..."There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a
vehicle". Having a loaded gun sitting on your passenger seat would then be carrying a concealed weapon. Without a CPL it would be a crime. So yes, you MUST disclose the weapon. In a locked box in the trunk, maybe not.
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To clarify, with a CPL you always need to disclose the weapon. In the trunk or not. With out a CPL and its in the trunk, locked, I'm not sure.
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To clarify, with a CPL you always need to disclose the weapon. In the trunk or not. With out a CPL and its in the trunk, locked, I'm not sure.
Got a cite for this? I find this interpretation interesting.
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Interpretation? From the M.S.P. web site. Left side,"firearms". Scroll down to "Proper conduct during encounters with police".
An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.
Failure to disclose this information to a police officer carries the following penalties:
First offense = State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CPL license suspension.
Second offense = State Civil Infraction - $1000 fine and CPL license revocation.
An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall have the license in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
Failure to possess CPL license when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and a $100.00 fine.
Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:
His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
His or her driver license or personal identification card
Failure to show CPL license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.
A pistol carried in violation of numbers 1, 2, or 3 is subject to immediate seizure by a police officer.
If a pistol is seized for failure to possess a CPL while carrying a concealed pistol:
Individual has 45 days in which to display their license to carry a concealed pistol to the law enforcement agency that seized the pistol and the pistol shall be returned.
If the individual does not display their license to carry a concealed pistol within 45 days the pistol is subject to forfeiture.
I'm not really sure what you mean by interpretation. But like I said, with out a CPL and the gun is in a locked box in the trunk, I don't know if you have to disclose. With a CPL, you ALWAYS have to disclose. :D
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An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.
1. Don't take legal advise from cops, they are often wrong.
2. t could be very successfully argued that if it is in the trunk and unloaded, you aren't in possession of it, but are rather transporting it.
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I'm going to say that it's not advise, but the law. After all, there are penaltys for not disclosing of a weapon. You can't be fined and your license suspended and your gun seized for not takeing advice. It states that if the weapon is on your person or in the car (paraphrase) you must disclose of it. Transporting it, useing it as a paper weight or anything else, it's still in your car. That was also a hard hit topic in my CPL class.
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Are you going to let them search your car?
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So if pulled over you wouldn't tell LEO of a weapon if it was in your trunk? Even though he already knows you have a CPL as he is walking up to your door. And when asked, because he most likely will ask, you'll say no? Then refuse a search if asked? ( I agree with no search part) Why not save any/all trouble that could happen and just tell him about the weapon? I'm sure the advice you are giving isn't to break the law by not disclosing you have a gun. I'm not sure what your angle is here.
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When asked I will say: I'm sorry officer, I understand you're just trying to do your job -- but I'd really rather not discuss the contents of my vehicle with you or answer any other questions.
My angle is that it is a personal choice. You are the one arguing that you are required to do it. I'm not saying what people should do I'm just offering a choice and arguing your position that it is required.
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I'm dumbfounded by you on this. It's not my position, it's the law. Black and white. No shades of
gray.
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Since you're new: here's some suggested watching....
Dont Talk to Police (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc#)
And it's not the law, it's your interpretation of it. Others here (besides me) will argue your interpretation is incorrect.
Now should you disclose? Only you can decide that...it's a personal decision. I'd put forth you're not required to.
I am Not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, if you want a lawyer's opinion you should post in the "Ask a Firearms attorney" area.
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Interpretation? From the M.S.P. web site. Left side,"firearms". Scroll down to "Proper conduct during encounters with police".
An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.
Failure to disclose this information to a police officer carries the following penalties:
First offense = State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CPL license suspension.
Second offense = State Civil Infraction - $1000 fine and CPL license revocation.
An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall have the license in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
Failure to possess CPL license when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and a $100.00 fine.
Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:
His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
His or her driver license or personal identification card
Failure to show CPL license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.
A pistol carried in violation of numbers 1, 2, or 3 is subject to immediate seizure by a police officer.
If a pistol is seized for failure to possess a CPL while carrying a concealed pistol:
Individual has 45 days in which to display their license to carry a concealed pistol to the law enforcement agency that seized the pistol and the pistol shall be returned.
If the individual does not display their license to carry a concealed pistol within 45 days the pistol is subject to forfeiture.
I'm not really sure what you mean by interpretation. But like I said, with out a CPL and the gun is in a locked box in the trunk, I don't know if you have to disclose. With a CPL, you ALWAYS have to disclose. :D
This is NOT a cite. It is a narrative. Cites are quotes from statutes. They begin with MCL and a number.
Now can you CITE any STATUTE to support your discussion?
We can proceed from there. Until then you are merely regurgitating someone's inaccurate opinion.
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I'm dumbfounded by you on this. It's not my position, it's the law. Black and white. No shades of
gray.
I am also dumfounded by YOU on this.
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Yes I can. www.legislature (http://www.legislature). mi.gov. section 28.425F. (3) Read it and tell me I'm wrong. You won't be able to. It's not my opinion, or my interpretation. It's the law.
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The intent of the law is 'officer safety'. What is in the trunk is not relevant to 'officer safety'.
But enough of opinions, lets see what the LAW says-
28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
Paragraph 3 clearly indicates that this only applies to someone who is 'carrying a concealed pistol'. A person without a CPL transporting a properly registered handgun in the trunk cannot be prosecuted for 'carrying concealed', ergo the truck is not 'concealed'. It can be argued that if the weapon is within reach of any occupant within the vehicle, it is 'concealed' within the vehicle.
Based on this, the qualifier in the first sentence removes the requirement to disclose. Further,
750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 227d.
(1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
(a) Taken down.
(b) Enclosed in a case.
(c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
(d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
This section clearly does not impose any requirements to disclose.
Ergo, a case could be made that the individual with the CPL was not under any duty to disclose.
Nothing, however, takes the place of the advice an actual attorney, which I am not.
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OMG! Are you kidding? YES IT DOES! Look at (3). The original question was about disclosing a pistol in the car if you have a CLP. YES! IT'S THE LAW. What in the world is wrong with you people? How do you get that you don't have to disclose from that law? It's plain as day.
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Transporting (unloaded, encased, in trunk) != "Carrying" -- that is the contention here. Exactly what is your legal and/or firearm background, n00b?
If transport = carrying than anyone "transporting" without a CPL is guilty of MCL 750.227 -- a 5 year felony.
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And what is yours? Noob. Lmao. I cant believe some one as numb as you is president. Pay attention. The original question was if the guy, who has a CPL has to disclose of his firearm if pulled over by a cop. Yes! All the other junk you bring up is hog wash and has nothing to do with the original question. Did you even read the law? Don't think so. Read (3) and the paragraph under it. Without a CPL a gun in a locked case in the trunk can not be prosecuted for carring concealed, ergo the trunk is not concealed. I can't believe how completely ignorant you are about this. And you call me a noob.
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Simple English, noob-
An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
You're not carrying, you're not obligated. There is a section on this forum where you can ask specific questions to actual lawyers. Avail yourself of that, then cast aspersions on those who have years of experience, training and research under their belt.
But, hey, do what you wish- it certainly can't hurt. It just isn't necessary.
You are getting pushback on this because we're VERY particular about folks taking one class, or reading a few posts, and becoming instant experts on the subject. You interpretation (or one you heard) may lead to some serious consequences from someone who actually thought you knew what you were talking about.
We've proved over & over that a) police are not experts on the law, and 2) CPL instructors let opinions creep into their presentations.
There are no minimum qualifications for someone to teach the legal portion of the CPL class, only that they be a LEO or attorney. There is no requirement that their materials be certified as accurate.
As you get more gray hair, you will realize that you cannot expect much from your fellow man; you MUST do the research yourself.
Also, you will receive better treatment if you don't attack people personally, especially if you don't know them. The Q is better connected in Lansing then you think; he has unique insights not available to the ordinary individual. he gets to talk to the people who ACTUALLY write these laws; in fact, he's looking over their shoulders, at times, speaking into their ear as they write.
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I went ahead & posted it on the 'Ask a Firearms Attorney' section. Will you accept the opinion of an attorney who SPECIALIZES in this area of law? Or, keep kicking against the goads?
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I went ahead & posted it on the 'Ask a Firearms Attorney' section. Will you accept the opinion of an attorney who SPECIALIZES in this area of law? Or, keep kicking against the goads?
My prediction is a lawyer will say that "you aren't required to disclose but it won't hurt."
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I went ahead & posted it on the 'Ask a Firearms Attorney' section. Will you accept the opinion of an attorney who SPECIALIZES in this area of law? Or, keep kicking against the goads?
My prediction is a lawyer will say that "you aren't required to disclose but it won't hurt."
All I need is 'not required'; the rest is irrelevant. I'm not about to discuss the contents of anything with anybody unless legally compelled, and THAT is the crux of the biscuit.
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Ummmm. You didn't read the O.P's question did you? He asked if he had to disclose of a non concealed weapon if he has a CPL. My answer was yes, because you can't open carry in a car. That's when all the s started. Q says you don't have to, but the law clearly states you do. You seem to have put your two cents in on a topic when you dont know the beginning. Being in the trunk had absolutely nothing to do with the original question. /head in hands/ ??? You should start at the begining.
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To clarify, with a CPL you always need to disclose the weapon. In the trunk or not. With out a CPL and its in the trunk, locked, I'm not sure.
You sir, are the one that mentioned a trunk first!
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Ummmm. You didn't read the O.P's question did you? He asked if he had to disclose of a non concealed weapon if he has a CPL. My answer was yes, because you can't open carry in a car. That's when all the s started. Q says you don't have to, but the law clearly states you do. You seem to have put your two cents in on a topic when you dont know the beginning. Being in the trunk had absolutely nothing to do with the original question. /head in hands/ ??? You should start at the begining.
Nice try, but we were addressing your incorrect assertion that an individual with a CPL MUST disclose, even if the weapon is in the trunk. Don't try to backpedal; man up, and admit you were wrong.
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"This is a little off-topic, but I don't believe there is an obligation to disclose an unconcealed pistol carried in a vehicle."
Main question. The answer is yes,you do need to disclose. There is no way to open carry in a car.
From Q.."Technically, it could be argued "carried otherwise" (neither open or concealed)....which was the angle he was arguing for. I wouldn't do it....I'd still disclose about my gun and my CPL, if I was carrying."
No. He specifically asked "I don't believe there is an obligation to disclose an unconcealed pistol carried in a vehicle."
Me...His first question is about a gun in the car. Again..."There is no way to “open carry” a pistol in a
vehicle". Having a loaded gun sitting on your passenger seat would then be carrying a concealed weapon. Without a CPL it would be a crime. So yes, you MUST disclose the weapon. In a locked box in the trunk, maybe not.
Later from Q..."My angle is that it is a personal choice. You are the one arguing that you are required to do it. I'm not saying what people should do I'm just offering a choice and arguing your position that it is required."
28.425f (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
Shadow Bear..."This section (28.425f) clearly does not impose any requirements to disclose.
Ergo, a case could be made that the individual with the CPL was not under any duty to disclose."
Ummm. Yes it does. See above.
Q...Transporting (unloaded, encased, in trunk) != "Carrying" -- that is the contention here. Exactly what is your legal and/or firearm background, n00b?
SB...."You're not carrying, you're not obligated."
Again, see 28.425f(3) If it's in your car you are carrying.... "shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle."
SB?..."Is an individual with a CPL, who is NOT carrying concealed in a vehicle, duty bound to disclose the presence of a firearm in the trunk of their vehicle?"
Original question/statement "This is a little off-topic, but I don't believe there is an obligation to disclose an unconcealed pistol carried in a vehicle."
What you asked isn't the question at hand. You asked about me saying "To clarify, with a CPL you always need to disclose the weapon. In the trunk or not. With out a CPL and its in the trunk, locked, I'm not sure."
"Paragraph 3 clearly indicates that this only applies to someone who is 'carrying a concealed pistol'. A person without a CPL transporting a properly registered handgun in the trunk cannot be prosecuted for 'carrying concealed', ergo the truck is not 'concealed'. It can be argued that if the weapon is within reach of any occupant within the vehicle, it is 'concealed' within the vehicle."
Not concealed in the trunk if you don't have a CPL.
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Any person can readily observe the first mention of the word "trunk" was in post #9, your post. Ironically the quoted post (post #5) says nothing about "trunk".
Ergo, the first time the letters "trunk" appear in this thread is from your post <period>.
PS. The second occurrence of that word in this thread was post #10, again, your post.
YOU brought "trunk" into this discussion. The rest of us are just correcting you ever since.
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What are you trying to correct? That if you have a CPL and keep your gun in the trunk you don't have to disclose it if you get pulled over and I said you do? If that's the case then we have a different interpretation of what the law says. -An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.- Isn't the trunk part of your car? -Paragraph 3 clearly indicates that this only applies to someone who is 'carrying a concealed pistol'. A person without a CPL transporting a properly registered handgun in the trunk cannot be prosecuted for 'carrying concealed', ergo the truck is not 'concealed'.- This is talking about transport without a CPL. I may have mentioned the trunk first, but I'm saying if its in your car and have a CPL you must disclose. In the trunk, under the seat, on your passenger seat. "or in his or her vehicle". You are saying that with a CPL and its in your trunk you don't have to disclose?
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Unloaded, stored, encased, in trunk Transport != "Carrying"
!= means "does not equal"
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Unloaded, stored, encased, in trunk Transport != "Carrying"
!= means "does not equal"
This part is in the transportation without a CPL portion. The question was about a gun in the car with CPL.
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sighs. Never mind. *headslap*
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Oh well. I still am not positive what you argument is. I say you have to disclose no matter where the gun is and you say if it's in the trunk you don't have to. Correct? If that's not it then I have no idea what you are disputing with me.
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That is the disagreement, yes.
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Ok. From some of your first posts I thought you where saying that he didn't have to disclose at all. I was arguing that you always have to. Trunk included.
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Ok. From some of your first posts I thought you where saying that he didn't have to disclose at all. I was arguing that you always have to. Trunk included.
Hammurabi was making the case for that in post #6 -- I don't buy into that interpretation.
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Ok. From some of your first posts I thought you where saying that he didn't have to disclose at all. I was arguing that you always have to. Trunk included.
If your gun is separated from the ammunition and stored in a case designed for a firearm in the trunk it is being transported. You are not in possession of it. Therefore, disclosure is not required.
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My apologies to you Q. After going back and reading the thread, I see in #13 ". t could be very successfully argued that if it is in the trunk and unloaded, you aren't in possession of it, but are rather transporting it." I missed the point you where making about being unloaded in in the trunk. This whole time I was arguing that you have to disclose a weapon any where in the car. Trunk included. I wasn't referring to in a locked box. Post# 9 " In a locked box in the trunk, maybe not." I thought you where saying that you don't have to disclose of a weapon any where in the car.
By the time you post #25-"Transporting (unloaded, encased, in trunk) != "Carrying" -- that is the contention here. Exactly what is your legal and/or firearm background, n00b? If transport = carrying than anyone "transporting" without a CPL is guilty of MCL 750.227 -- a 5 year felony." I was over looking the unloaded in a case part. Calling me a noob when you don't know me or anything about me is why you got the reaction from me that you did. I'm sure you are good at what you do. Being new to your site, open carry, doesn't make me new to guns. Only new to you. If things go right we'll meet in Holt Sunday. I'm not a d1*k like I'm sure you think I am and you're not what I was thinking.
Jason B.
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Looking forward to meeting you. It appears we both overlooked/missed the occasional key word of the other person. My apologies...
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Ok. From some of your first posts I thought you where saying that he didn't have to disclose at all. I was arguing that you always have to. Trunk included.
If your gun is separated from the ammunition and stored in a case designed for a firearm in the trunk it is being transported. You are not in possession of it. Therefore, disclosure is not required.
+1 for Pat; always the voice of reason.
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Ok. From some of your first posts I thought you where saying that he didn't have to disclose at all. I was arguing that you always have to. Trunk included.
Are you saying that the gun is loaded in the trunk? If it is loaded in the trunk I think you have to disclose if you have a CPL. If the gun is UNLOADED and stored according to the law, then you don't have to disclose if you have a CPL.
If a person does not have a CPL and has a gun lawfully stored in his vehicle he has no obligation to disclose.
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My apologies to you Q. After going back and reading the thread, I see in #13 ". t could be very successfully argued that if it is in the trunk and unloaded, you aren't in possession of it, but are rather transporting it." I missed the point you where making about being unloaded in in the trunk. This whole time I was arguing that you have to disclose a weapon any where in the car. Trunk included. I wasn't referring to in a locked box. Post# 9 " In a locked box in the trunk, maybe not." I thought you where saying that you don't have to disclose of a weapon any where in the car.
By the time you post #25-"Transporting (unloaded, encased, in trunk) != "Carrying" -- that is the contention here. Exactly what is your legal and/or firearm background, n00b? If transport = carrying than anyone "transporting" without a CPL is guilty of MCL 750.227 -- a 5 year felony." I was over looking the unloaded in a case part. Calling me a noob when you don't know me or anything about me is why you got the reaction from me that you did. I'm sure you are good at what you do. Being new to your site, open carry, doesn't make me new to guns. Only new to you. If things go right we'll meet in Holt Sunday. I'm not a d1*k like I'm sure you think I am and you're not what I was thinking.
Jason B.
+1 for Jason