Concealing someone elses gun

[Advanced Security]

I was wondering something. I have a CPL. I understand I can sit in the car with my gun next to me loaded. Assume I have a friend in the car, can I have his gun in the car too if he has NO cpl? I can carry his gun, and conceal it, why not in the back seat in a case, instead of the trunk?

Also, assume I may transport a felon, should I tell them I have a gun, or not? Or not even carry then? Thanks everyone...

Jeff

[Warchild]

Yes, as a cpl holder you can carry anyone's legally registered gun. It can even be loaded, lying in the back seat. As long as the non cpl holder doesn't have possession of it you are legal. The driver is responsible for the contents of his vehicle.
As per the felon issue; I have two close relatives that are convicted felons, again, as long as they are not in possession of the gun you are okay. It will also depend on the circumstances and restrictions of his parole. This should be cleared with his parole officer. You are not required to tell anyone, but it would be the courteous thing to do in case he is restricted from being around firearms. 

[Advanced Security]

Thanks Warchild.  That's kind of what I thought, I just wanted to make sure that was the case. 

I'll be checking with officials as far as the felon thing goes.  Since they're friends, I of course, am looking to be courteous. 

Have a blessed day.

Jeff

[Warchild]

An additional thought;
Make sure there is a clear definition of the difference between "possession" and "access to" a firearm.
It is two completely different restrictions.

i.e.; They are restricted from possession, we all know that. However, they may also be restricted from having "access to" a firearm. If my relative comes over I don't have to put my guns away because his parole does not restrict him from being "around" guns; he just cannot "posses" them.
Is that clear as mud?

I hope this helps. If you have other questions about this and don't want to post them, PM me.

[NHCGRPR45]

i would think "access" to mean "direct access"  my company deals with security and bail enforcement and we have a felon working for us. and his parole officer met with us because we have company issued weapons. we talked with the parole officer and we went into this area, we went to bat for our employee saying that he has no direct access to company firearms so there was no reason to terminate his employment with us. there are 3 people who have access to our arms room and he wasn't one of them. he did handle the paperwork for new firearms for the company but did not actually have access to them. once we talked the parole officer he really didn't have anything to say so we shook hands and he left.  also as long as you don't give direct access to your firearms to your friend i don't see any reason to worry. say you give him a key to your house that would be fine as long as you didn't give him the key for the gun safe also, just an example. but check somebody like a lawyer first IMO
shaun

[Advanced Security]

i would think "access" to mean "direct access"  my company deals with security and bail enforcement and we have a felon working for us. and his parole officer met with us because we have company issued weapons. we talked with the parole officer and we went into this area, we went to bat for our employee saying that he has no direct access to company firearms so there was no reason to terminate his employment with us. there are 3 people who have access to our arms room and he wasn't one of them. he did handle the paperwork for new firearms for the company but did not actually have access to them. once we talked the parole officer he really didn't have anything to say so we shook hands and he left.  also as long as you don't give direct access to your firearms to your friend i don't see any reason to worry. say you give him a key to your house that would be fine as long as you didn't give him the key for the gun safe also, just an example. but check somebody like a lawyer first IMO
shaun

Actually, some felons can't be around guns, some can't have access to them, and others still can't touch them. Its a case by case basis.  Need to ask. I did.

God Bless,

Jeff

[Evil Creamsicle]

along those same lines, a person without a CPL is required to store their weapons so they are 'inaccessable' to the passengers in the vehicle...

so I might not recommend just leaving it in the back seat... keep it on you.

[Radioman]

Evil has the right idea here.  If you have someone in your car that does not have a valid CPL then keep any firearm that is loaded on your person or have it locked up so that they have no way of accessing it without knocking you out to get to it. (in the trunk locked up or in a lockbox in your car with a key or combo)

I know someone will say just having it out of their reach will satisfy the letter of the law.  But I dont want to be a test case for the definition of that wording.  Your decisions might differ from mine.  If they do best of luck to you and hope they dont get anyone in trouble.

Radioman

[venator]

along those same lines, a person without a CPL is required to store their weapons so they are 'inaccessable' to the passengers in the vehicle...

so I might not recommend just leaving it in the back seat... keep it on you.

Can you cite this?  I'm not aware of any statute wording in this regard.  If there is I would like to add it to my references page.

[Evil Creamsicle]

I thought that was how it was worded... let me go look for it I might be wrong

ETA: I was incorrect. I was referring to 750.227d, but that specifically excludes pistols. 750.227 subsection 2, regarding pistols, uses the wording 'on or about his or her person'.

'on or about', though, that could mean 'within reach'. Its not a very clear term. I'd still be careful.

[CoonDog]

Deleted. (Misunderstood the question).

[Advanced Security]

Ok.  Clearly this could be interpreted in a lot of ways.  I normally roll in a 2 seater, with my partner's glock under my seat, and mine under my leg.  Both of which would require me to give them to him.  Theres just no way he could reach with the console between us.  Does this seem ok, or too grey?  I'm thinking this has to be ok, but, then again, as long as congress is in session, no law is safe.

God bless,

Jeff

[Evil Creamsicle]

That would seem to be OK to me. I have done similar maneuvers.

[NHCGRPR45]

so long as they are not in actual physical possesion i would think that to be ok. i would say to be sure that you could call a lawyer but our old company lawyer said it must be actual physical posession.

[Radioman]

along those same lines, a person without a CPL is required to store their weapons so they are 'inaccessable' to the passengers in the vehicle...

so I might not recommend just leaving it in the back seat... keep it on you.

Can you cite this?  I'm not aware of any statute wording in this regard.  If there is I would like to add it to my references page.

OK.  Let me point everyone to the rest of my comment where it says

I know someone will say just having it out of their reach will satisfy the letter of the law.  But I dont want to be a test case for the definition of that wording.  Your decisions might differ from mine.  If they do best of luck to you and hope they dont get anyone in trouble.

Radioman

Now for another disclaimer.  I am not a lawyer.  Please consult one before you get into any trouble for listening to what I have to say.

Now to the issue.  Evil is right on the portion for the CPL holder.  750.227 (2) says a CPL holder can carry in a vehicle on or about his or her person.  This makes it legal for that person to have a loaded weapon in the vehicle.  I read the "or about" portion as being directly in control of the weapon meaning if its not on my body in a holster then its in my lap or under my leg, not sitting open where anyone else can make a grab over or around me to access it.

Now lets look at the person in the vehicle that does not have a CPL.  They need to follow 750.231a (1)(d and e) which list exemptions to 750.227 subsection 2 which call for the pistol to be unloaded and enclosed in a case designed to hold a firearm in the trunk of the vehicle (d) or if a trunk is not in the vehicle design then placed not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle (e).  This allows non-cpl holders to transport firearms for legal purposes if and only if your situation applies to one of the exemptions listed.  I only included the two that applied to the situation the OP presented, Dealers, antiques and out of state CPL holders were not included in the original or subsiquent posts.

So by applying those two laws to the situation of a CPL holder and a Non-CPL holder in a vehicle together I see it as CPL holder has it directly on his/her person or its transported per 750.231a (1)(d,e) to keep the non-cpl holder legal.

Again I am not a lawyer.  Proceed at your own risk.  If you want ot be a test case for the on or about your person line when you have a non-cpl holder in the vehicle with you be my guest.  But understand I do not recommend you doing this and I am not a lawyer.

Radioman

Edited to make it english rather than Radiomanish.  Yes I don't claim to be an english major, I usually speak american or radiomanish when its been a long day.

[BailEnforcer]

I recently relocated to Detroit from another state and while I am awaiting my CPL to go through; we all know how fast Wayne County is on processing applications, I open carry every where.  I live in Detroit nad have yet to be questioned on it by anyone; including the police. 

I work in Bail Enforcement and spoke with a high ranking member of the DPD about CC and OC a while back and he:

1) Told me about this great site
2) Told me that when working to stay legit have my partner carry my HK while Im sitting in the car and take it from him as I exit. 
3) Since I am permitted to OC in public but would require a CCW/CPL to carry a pistol in the car this work around would keep me from peril.

And I took his advise; when I am traveling alone; I do have my duty belt on with the mag droped into my holster and my pistol in a gun box in the trunk; once I met with my partner I remove the pistol from the box and load it.  While we are driving he takes possession of it and when I exit the car I holster it.

[BailEnforcer]

...CONT ...

We where stopped in Detroit in the middle of the night by the SP about 2 weeks ago; didn’t know my tail lights where out (blown fuse, easy fix). 

When the trooper walked up to the car the first thing I said was good morning troop and the second was “for officer safety; just so you know, we do have firearms in the car”.  We kept our hand sin plain sight the whole time and the Trooper thanked us for telling him right away and asked what we had, where and why! 

I told him who I was and what I was doing and that in the trunk was a .12ga shot gun and my partner had two hand guns; his and mine.   

The trooper couldn’t figure out why he was carrying my pistol and I simply advised him that I OC per the law as I am new to the state and have yet to receive my MI CCW/CPL and since my partner had his; he carried both weapons while we where in the vehicle.

Much to my surprise he was fine with it; said it was a gray area, but he didn’t see anything wrong with it.  He ran us out and made sure the guns where “safety inspected” and let us go with a warning about the tail lights; and told us not to reload until he was gone. I fixed the lights about 5 mins later!

All and all for my first experience with a LEO about carrying in this matter it was great!