Author Topic: Working up the courage only to get discouraged  (Read 13919 times)

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xerxescct

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Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« on: April 11, 2013, 05:31:27 PM »
So I am new to the whole open carry thing. I fully support it. I have been reading up on the letter of the law as much as I can. Getting info as I go along. Working up the courage to open carry on my own block.

I live in an apartment complex. There is no ban on guns in the lease agreement I already checked. I have a good amount of space with a back deck. I live on a lake and we usually get around 4 or 5 Swans that migrate in this time of year and the first Swan showed up today. I was out on my deck (Only accessible to me by way of sliding glass door) taking some stills and video of the first Swan that has come in. My neighbor, whom I dont know well at all noticed I was open carrying on the deck. At first he said nothing but I knew he was looking at me. I ignored him and kept doing what I was doing. He went inside, came back out, went inside, came back out, each time looking at me for a bit.

I knew what he was looking at so finally I looked over at him and said "Good Afternoon, I noticed you looking at me is there something I can help you with?" His response was "Is that a gun on your hip?" I answered yes and he followed up with "You cant have that out in the open like that" I asked him for a reason and he responded with "This is a public area, anyone can see you, you cant have guns out in the public like that so I suggest you take the gun inside or I will call the police." I then explained to him that the deck is my private dwelling and I can carry openly as if I were inside the building. I also added that there is no law against open carry at this location. His response was "We will see about that"

I was expecting the police to knock on the door a few minutes later but instead I got a call from the office. She told me there was a call about me having a gun out in the open. I told her that was correct and explained the same laws to her as I did the neighbor. She agreed with me and that was the end of it. I went back out on the deck to take some more photos and even pulled up a chair and just sat there. The neighbor never came back out. Have not heard anything since but it got me wondering.

I went digging through some of the laws and could not find much except for bits and pieces regarding your dwelling or within the 4 walls of your dwelling. So would the back deck be considered public? And even so I was open carrying in public in an area not off limits to it. We also have a public dwelling that all the apartments connect too. Its a public area that is heated and cooled where we get the mail and such and I have open carried to the laundry room and the mail box without issue. This public dwelling I assume is the same as the sidewalk, parking lot, main street. But I could be wrong. So I simply ask your advice to avoid problems in the future to where if the police do come knocking at the door I will know what to do and say.

Thank you all for your time.

Offline TucTom

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 05:49:16 PM »
I would recommend looking here http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,25.0.html for more information.

The office said no problems so there are no issues for you on the Apt. grounds. And as you said you were carrying in a public area that is not off limits. I think a better way of talking to the neighbor would have not asked his reason why you couldn't carry but your reasons you can. Please do some more reading so you can give the neighbor more information, turn him to the right side of firearms.

xerxescct

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 06:39:36 PM »
I would recommend looking here http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,25.0.html for more information.

The office said no problems so there are no issues for you on the Apt. grounds. And as you said you were carrying in a public area that is not off limits. I think a better way of talking to the neighbor would have not asked his reason why you couldn't carry but your reasons you can. Please do some more reading so you can give the neighbor more information, turn him to the right side of firearms.

Thank you for the quick reply. I read nearly every line in those posts and its clear to me I was in the right no matter what the neighbor thinks. Even if the office had a problem I dont see how they could do anything about it. My lease does not exclude firearms and I am well aware of others on the grounds who have firearms themselves.

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 07:07:55 PM »
Learn the statutes. And become confident in your knowledge of them. Then you will find the courage not to be discouraged.
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Offline Bronson

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 07:18:56 PM »
"I will call the police."

"Ok, here you can use my phone if you'd like."  All with a friendly smile on your face  :D

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline sircapsalot

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 10:47:09 PM »
I wish i could think of things like that on the fly...
"Ok, here you can use my phone if you'd like."  All with a friendly smile on your face  :D

Bronson

Offline Donut

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2013, 12:43:32 AM »
You could print off a copy of the Michigan gun laws and be very polite and give him a copy, but just for your own sake have a witness with you and I would not carry at that time. Just my opinion . But be very polite.

Offline Bronson

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2013, 03:52:34 AM »
I wish i could think of things like that on the fly...

Most people can't.  Which is why it is important to run scenarios, at the very least, in your head before hand.  What will you say to police if they ask you?  What will you say to police if you have to use your firearm?  What will you say to a belligerent jack-ass?  What will you say to a scared old lady?  Think about it then practice ACTUALLY saying it out loud.  If you want to take it a step further record it and watch your facial expressions in the mirror or on video to make sure the rate, tone, volume, & pitch of your voice and your facial expressions match the message you are trying to convey.

Their is some great stuff in Rory Miller's and Lawrence Kane's book Scaling Violence: Dynamic Decision Making Under Threat of Violence on using your voice, posture, and expressions to de-escalate an agitated person.  But like any skill it has to be practiced.

http://www.amazon.com/Scaling-Force-Dynamic-Decision-Violence/dp/1594392501

Bronson
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

Offline TheQ

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Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2013, 07:36:47 AM »
You could print off a copy of the Michigan gun laws and be very polite and give him a copy, but just for your own sake have a witness with you and I would not carry at that time. Just my opinion . But be very polite.

That'd be 200+ pages in its entirety -- just sayin' ;)
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

xerxescct

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2013, 05:29:06 PM »
Had a talk with the office some more today and there is a question as to weather the balcony is considered a private area. I would assume so. The suggestion was made that when my neibor was out on his balcony I would just conceal the weapon if it caused that much of a stir. I dont really feel the need to do this if I am within my legal rights but it was something that just got me wondering

I know without a CPL I can conceal carry inside my own 4 walls but is the private balcony considered inside the four walls?

Needless to say I took some trash out today and open carried. I am slowly working up more courage.

Offline FASBOLD

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2013, 05:56:22 PM »
Is the balcony only accessible from inside your apartment? This should not matter, but might mean something to a lawyer.

I would think that it is just like my yard. When I am inside my property line I can open or conceal to my heart's content with or without a CPL. I see the balcony that is included as part of your rent as valid for you to OC.

The Constitution does not guarantee us freedom from being offended or others scaring themselves through their own projections on us.

If the lease does not mention it, you should be good.

If you are in an area where others can see you, have a voice recorder running to CYA.

If you are worried, and even if you are not, you will want to consult a lawyer.

"The people of these United States are the rightful masters of both Congresses and courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
~ Abraham Lincoln
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Offline yance

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2013, 06:21:42 PM »
There is nothing in the law that would prevent you from open carrying around the complex, I wouldnt get so worked up about your neighbors seeing you, if they dont like it thats their personal problem.  Its not prohibited in your lease agreement so my stance would simply be OC and OC as much as I wanted, you dont have to give up your rights to make other people feel comfortable and the moment you do is the moment they start taking the rest of your rights away.  If you are within the law and your lease agreement to OC at your apartment and around the complex then I wouldnt sweat the rest of it, anything after "yes you are allowed by both state law and your lease agreement to OC" I wouldnt even bother with. 

Offline Donut

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2013, 01:02:54 AM »
Had a talk with the office some more today and there is a question as to weather the balcony is considered a private area. I would assume so. The suggestion was made that when my neibor was out on his balcony I would just conceal the weapon if it caused that much of a stir. I dont really feel the need to do this if I am within my legal rights but it was something that just got me wondering

I know without a CPL I can conceal carry inside my own 4 walls but is the private balcony considered inside the four walls?

Needless to say I took some trash out today and open carried. I am slowly working up more courage.
Na! I got a 4 page form that came with my CPL app at my local county clerks office.
That would be the easiest way and he could just sit and read it.

Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2013, 02:10:37 PM »
There is nothing in the law that would prevent you from open carrying around the complex, I wouldnt get so worked up about your neighbors seeing you, if they dont like it thats their personal problem.  Its not prohibited in your lease agreement so my stance would simply be OC and OC as much as I wanted, you dont have to give up your rights to make other people feel comfortable and the moment you do is the moment they start taking the rest of your rights away.  If you are within the law and your lease agreement to OC at your apartment and around the complex then I wouldnt sweat the rest of it, anything after "yes you are allowed by both state law and your lease agreement to OC" I wouldnt even bother with.

Not prohibited yet. Take care- renting is a precarious situation.
Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline METL

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2013, 10:10:12 AM »
Why is the OP only a "guest" now?

Offline TheQ

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Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 10:52:07 AM »

Why is the OP only a "guest" now?

He requested an account deletion (for some reason) which I granted.
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline CV67PAT

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 09:05:40 PM »
He requested an account deletion (for some reason) which I granted.
Can I request an account deletion?
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Offline linux203

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Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 09:16:45 PM »
Request denied. You can resubmit in 30 days for further disapproval. ;)
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace. Luke 11:21

Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."  Luke 22:36

Offline Shadow Bear

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2013, 06:47:54 PM »
Can I request an account deletion?

Which account....? ;D
Its not GUN rights, its HUMAN rights.

Offline LD

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Re: Working up the courage only to get discouraged
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2013, 09:39:57 PM »
This would have been the perfect place for one of the MOC tir folds.
Just stick it in the neighbors door.