Author Topic: Armed Fed Agents and Snipers?  (Read 24622 times)

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Offline gryphon

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Bundy family addresses unanswered questions
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2014, 05:39:00 PM »
This is a little bit of a long read, but it has some additional interesting background on what took place at the ranch, particularly with regard to the sheriff and one deputy. You can probably skip the first part and go straight to the sub-heading The blow up.


Heather Hamilton-Maude
Tri-State Livestock News
April 26, 2014

“To me, the only reason the federal government would act this way is to have unlimited power. They want to assume the sovereignty, laws and land, and policing power. Not only do they assume these things, they believe they already have them. When they were challenged, their response was to show me I have none of these things,” began Cliyven Bundy of the reason behind the BLM’s (Bureau of Land Management) recent show of force against him and his family’s operation.

The history of grazing fees

It has been 20 years since Bundy paid a grazing fee to the BLM, a major point of contention to some. But the issue is far deeper and more complex than that single statement reads.

“There are multiple angles to explain on this topic. What I would like to express more than anything is that the BLM does not own the land. In other words, it is not federal land, it is state land. A lot of people, even ranchers, think they’re buying grass or pasture when they pay a grazing fee or permit, but that is incorrect. That grass is theirs by preemptive rights by beneficial use, and those rights began when that grazing use began – 137 years ago in my case. What you pay the BLM for is management and range improvements. Of every dollar spent on grazing fees, 12.5 percent is supposed to go the BLM for managing the land, and the other 80-some percent is supposed to come back to the land as range improvements. When you look at the law those are the only two purposes for your grazing fees.

“So, go back 20 years to when I quit paying grazing fees to the federal government. The administrative regulatory pressure at the time was being used to run myself and my neighbors out of business. They came along with a full force and effect decision on the basis of an endangered species, and said we couldn’t graze for three to four months in the peak of the spring. That was followed by another full force and effect decision that said the land was totally closed to grazing. In that process my neighbors, 52 ranching families in Clark County and hundreds of others across the Mohave Desert to the Pacific Ocean, were run out of business. I chose to send administrative notices to the solitary offices and BLM district office in Reno, Nev., stating I was not going to allow the BLM to manage my ranch out of business, and would not pay them for their management services anymore, and I didn’t,” said Bundy.

Upon his decision to stop paying a fee and sign the associated contract, Bundy cleared himself of contract of law with the federal government as stated in the Constitution, eliminating any ties between himself and that government, he says.

“That is a difference between myself and most ranchers. Without a permit I can keep myself clean of their courts, and challenge them on the basis of state sovereignty, asking whether the federal government or the people of Nevada own the land in question. When they’re questioned in this manner, they either have to prove they have the authority, or the other side, Bundy in this case, wins. I consider Nevada a sovereign state with its own law and rights, which I abide by in full,” he said, adding he would have no issues paying a grazing fee to the proper authority of Clark County, Nev., which he has done. Bundy said he has submitted payment to the county. After cashing the check, the county tried to return it but Bundy did not accept the return and the county has the funds in their account as of today.

The blow up

“We have known about the BLM’s proposed roundup for some time, and their reasoning that we were not adhering by their codes or laws, giving them the right to remove our cattle,” said Cliven’s son Ammon Bundy.

However, what the Bundy family was not prepared for was the size, scope and intensity of the BLM’s operation or the response of their friends and neighbors across America, who they refer to as “We the People.”

“Two things surprised me in this. One was that the government would spend that much, I think it was $3 million or more, on this project, and that they actually took over the policing power of the state and county and labeled us ‘domestic terrorists.’ I didn’t expect them to go to force with snipers, ground force and fully armed men. That was a little overwhelming,” said Cliven.

Ammon agreed, adding the agency brought about 200 vehicles, counting the contract cowboys and federal agents, into the area and set up what he referred to as a compound on March 27.

“The hills around the ranch were covered with agents and vehicles. You could see helicopters, vehicles on every road, and wherever there was a larger space between roads they had cameras set up. They literally had the whole place on lockdown, and everywhere they went it was a pack that included a contract cowboy, agents, and five to six armed vehicles following front and back. If anyone stepped off a road, they would immediately go and hassle them,” said Ammon.

Incidents between the BLM and Bundy supporters occurred with increasing frequency, and climaxed on Saturday, April 12 when 300-plus people and approximately 50 horsemen converged on the federal forces in a washout off I-15 with the intent of making them put down their weapons, release the Bundy cattle, and leave the area.

“The second thing that was surprising was how the people rebelled as a whole and said ‘no more’ to the point they actually faced the federal guns and moved them. What a story,” said Cliven.

It was the people, not the Bundy family, who insisted on the release of the cattle during a 9 a.m. public press conference that same Saturday between the local sheriff and the Bundys to discuss negotiations. Ammon explained that the sheriff was neutralized on the issue, and would not even respond to 911 calls placed by Bundy family members or their supporters during any of the altercations with the BLM personnel.

“The sheriff announced at the press conference, following its opening with a prayer and the pledge of allegiance, that the BLM was leaving the area and would stop collecting cattle, but needed a week to get out. There were between 1,500 and 2,000 people in attendance, and they are who raised the question of what would be done with the cattle already collected. The word was the BLM would not release those cattle, and the people wouldn’t have it.

“After a very short conversation back and forth, my father gave the sheriff one hour to communicate that to the BLM. When the cattle weren’t released the people literally got in their vehicles and drove up I-15 to the site where the cattle were held. They were met by approximately 100 fully armed agents dressed in full tactical gear, helmets and everything else,” said Ammon.

As seen in multiple online videos, the group peacefully and slowly converged on the BLM’s blockade, choosing to ignore threats that they would be shot if they came closer, and requests to have an individual come forward alone. Dan Love of Oregon BLM was the head officer, and met them at the portable panel fence with additional threats and attempts at manipulation, Ammon said.

“He was basically saying we needed to back down, and we were replying that we wouldn’t, and the entire time there were weapons on us from about 20 feet away. Then something very relieving happened – down the wash on the BLM side comes one of our sheriff deputies named Tom Roberts with a guard. He said he was there for us, tell him what we wanted him to do. I replied that short of not allowing us to finish what we came to do, we would follow his orders,” said Ammon.

Love “attempted to manipulate” Tom Roberts until Ammon loudly proclaimed that Love did not have any authority, but that Roberts was the authority of the people and who they would listen to, Ammon said.

“Roberts demanded the BLM back down and put their arms down, which they did. He asked us to back off also, then basically had a conversation with us asking what we wanted. We explained we wanted the BLM out of there, and that we would give them 30 minutes to get the first vehicle out. He relayed that and they began backing up and got their vehicles completely away from us. We were extremely happy. At 30 minutes they sent a single vehicle out, then at about 45 minutes to an hour the rest left in a convoy of 107 vehicles and fled to Utah,” said Ammon, adding they left generators running, personal belongings, vehicles and numerous other items behind in their haste to leave.

At that point the cattle were released and trailed down the wash and out of the BLM’s temporary corral.

“Traffic was backed up on I-15 for 80 miles for four hours. There were thousands of people lined up on the freeway and along the edge of the wash. When those cattle came down the people were hugging and cheering and crying – it was an amazing experience,” said Ammon.

Everyone followed the cattle back to the protest site, and immediately began celebrating their victory. But Ammon, his brother and a small group took the time to walk back to the wash and lay down the panels between the wash and the BLM’s compound.

“We took the time to quietly lay down probably around 100 panels to symbolize that our cattle were not going to be stolen, that our people would not have arms pressed against them and that we have freedoms and rights as Americans,” explained Ammon.

Cliven added that while intense, the people had no fear because they knew they were within their constitutional rights as well as those of the Lord.

Going forward

On a personal level, the Bundy family continues cleaning up the damage, caring for injured livestock, looking for additional sick, injured or dead livestock and taking note of the destruction of water lines, troughs and storage tanks. The BLM claimed to have gathered 384 head, but with the dead toll included, the Bundy’s have only recovered 352 head thus far. They remain uncertain whether there are additional dead on the property, they were hauled off the ranch or the BLM’s count was inaccurate.

Ammon said that watching his cattle gathered by helicopter at a run on 90-degree days, with no regard for their health or the separation of cows and their calves was particularly difficult on Cliven. While also a struggle for he and his brothers, Ammon said they were able to stay focused on their goal of breaking the federal government’s pattern of taking control of land and removing the people from it.

“We knew if the federal government was successful in locking down this land and oppressing us by force that it would never end. They drew the line, and we had to cross it. It’s about understanding and then standing for what’s right. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to make it right. The fight is not just for you, your ranch or even your livelihood, it’s ultimately for our country,” he said.

Cliven added that the current problem in the western U.S. is the fact they have a contract with the federal government through grazing permits. Clearing those contracts and returning power to the sovereign states and counties is what he calls the first step in literally disarming the U.S. bureaucracy.

“The BLM and Forest Service people do not need to have guns. If they want to exercise their second amendment right and carry a gun, they should be able to. But they should not have a government issued weapon they carry to work when wearing their uniform. They work as public servants, and should be acting like boy scouts, not an army,” explained Cliven.

He said that if actions aren’t taken to reduce the power of the federal bureaucracy, he fears for civil war within the country.

“They are already the strongest army in the world – the army within America by the bureaucrats is. They are well armed and well outfitted with the finest equipment available. They just bought how many thousands of bullets, not to shoot at a foreign enemy, but to shoot at American citizens. We can’t allow that to happen,” said Cliven.

To begin the process, he suggested first eliminating any contracts a producer has with the federal government, then working with local and state governments to make necessary changes.

“Call your county sheriff and ask them to take those guns away. This is a big deal for our industry, it should be we the people of the states and counties that own this land, then as ranchers we have preemptive rights by beneficial use for grazing, just as others have similar rights for hunting, fishing, riding, mining, etc.” said Cliven.

Ammon said that he would classify the Bundy ranch as being about the “freest in the entire country,” right now, adding that as of the BLM pulling out it was reopened to 4-wheelers, camping, horseback riding and cattle grazing.

“Harry Reid has been threatening us all week with little comments. He’s calling us violent domestic terrorists, and has said, ‘something will happen,’ in a pretense that seems to want civil war. We are the Bundy Bunkerville ranch domestic terrorists, but we are also, ‘We the People,’ American ranchers who took control back, and we’re proud of it,” said Cliven.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Armed Fed Agents and Snipers?
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2014, 08:55:47 AM »
FBI Targets Bundy Supporters

Asked if there would be consequences for somebody recorded on video tape or a news camera pointing a gun at a Metro officer or a federal ranger, Lombardo said yes.

“There is definitely going to be consequences, definitely. That is unacceptable behavior. If we let it go, it would continue into the future,” he said.

Offline TheQ

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Armed Fed Agents and Snipers?
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2014, 10:36:56 AM »
It would be anarchy!

DEA Fed ppl pointing guns at peaceful ppl = ok

Others pointing guns at Fed officials who have guns and have demonstrated aggressive intent = not OK it
I Am Not A Lawyer (nor a gunsmith).

Offline Scott Leyder

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Re: Armed Fed Agents and Snipers?
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2014, 12:36:29 PM »
As far as I am concerned every individual has to make the choice to stand for freedom or the state and that does not stop due to your employer.  If I am working for an employer that asks me to break the law then I can do what he wants and run the risk of jail when the law catches up or I can tell him to shove it.  Either way I have a decision to make and these officers have no excuse for making the wrong one.  I don't really like how any of this unfolded but, freedom and the state seem to be on a collision course and it is simply not a good situation for any of us.  This being said I think this Josie outlaw video is a perfect fit for this situation. 

Offline Glock9mmOldStyle

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Re: Re: Armed Fed Agents and Snipers?
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2014, 10:06:04 PM »
It would be anarchy!

DEA Fed ppl pointing guns at peaceful ppl = ok

Others pointing guns at Fed officials who have guns and have demonstrated aggressive intent = not OK it


Just more "do as we say, not as we do!" Excellent observations in this thread. ;D
"It is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves."
 -Jeffrey Snyder 1993

Offline gryphon

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Re: Armed Fed Agents and Snipers?
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2014, 11:26:06 AM »

Offline gryphon

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Bundy supporter: No guns pointed at police or BLM
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2014, 10:12:38 PM »
Metro Police has said the officers feared for their lives on that day because so many of Bundy’s supporters were armed and some pointed weapons at them.

“It's not a rumor. When we first got out there and made a left to divide I-15, that's all you saw. You saw kids and women and horses in the backdrop and then men with guns, lying on the ground, in the back of pickup trucks. We're going, wow, this would never happen in Las Vegas, but it was there. That's not a rumor. It's reality and I saw it with my own eyes,” said Sgt. Tom Jenkins, Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.

Brand Thornton, one of the Bundy supporters, says he was the mediator between Sgt. Jenkins and the militia. He says the police are lying. Thornton admits he was armed with an AK47 and he doesn’t deny the situation was dangerous, but he says, no one pointed a gun at police or BLM agents.

When he saw the I-Team’s interviews with police officers who felt threatened, he had issues with the statements Sgt. Jenkins made.

“He talked about someone saying 'are you ready to die?' No there was nobody."

Police told the I-Team they thought they might die.

Thornton says he never saw any of the supporters point weapons at the officers.

8 News NOW poured through hours of video shot by their photographers in Bunkerville and could not find any proof of guns aimed at officers either.

Thornton was a visible presence on the 8 News NOW stories and he believes the FBI might be investigating him. He says he has noticed unmarked cars following him.