Author Topic: Open carry for poll watchers  (Read 1904 times)

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Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Open carry for poll watchers
« on: October 07, 2020, 07:45:40 AM »
Can Poll Watchers open carry?
I'd assume so, barring any law saying they can't, but Joceyln Benson is aghast at the very thought of it.

https://www.fox17online.com/news/election-2020/open-carry-of-guns-is-an-open-question-at-michigan-polls-on-election-day

Is this forum officially dead?
I'd assume so, but thought I'd post this up and see if anybody's here.

BTW, does everybody know about the lawsuit against FaceBook for trying to illegally influence the elections?
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/10/fec-complaint-filed-against-facebook-for-federal-election-campaign-violations/
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2020, 10:02:54 AM »
When I first read this post I read it as poll-workers.

I would think open carrying by poll watchers would be legal because they aren't employed by the state or locality.  I'm sure some would say it's illegal because they are intimidating voters, though. 

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2020, 08:58:19 PM »
And now Benson, with hearty applause from Nessel and Whitmer, is saying that nobody can OC within 100' of the polls.

Apparently violating the law concerning firearms does not deter Benson any more than Whitmer and Nessel care about violating the law concerning emergency management orders.

Beau LaFave and others have spoken out against Benson's self-enacted legislation. Are the House and Senate taking steps to stop this?
What impeachment powers does the state legislature have? It would seem the '3 witches of Lansing' have done more to merit it than Trump could ever hope to do.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elanagross/2020/10/16/michigan-bans-open-carry-of-guns-at-polling-sites-on-election-day-sparking-anger-from-second-amendment-advocates/#34b4fb3a19b9

Do I need to kick another hundred into the MOC legal fund over this?
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2020, 09:10:14 PM »
And now Benson, with hearty applause from Nessel and Whitmer, is saying that nobody can OC within 100' of the polls.
 .......

Do I need to kick another hundred into the MOC legal fund over this?

Good idea.  I think I'll kick something in as well!   :D

Here is a copy of my post over at MGO.   It sums up pretty much how I feel about the SOS instructions.



"I'm not a lawyer but I'm very interested in this as well. The clear language from the statute is:

"REVISED JUDICATURE ACT OF 1961 (EXCERPT)
Act 236 of 1961

600.1825 Arrest; privileged persons.
Sec. 1825.

(1) Every elector is privileged from arrest while going to, attending, and returning from elections in all cases except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace."

Here is an except from the SOS instructions to poll workers:

"October 16, 2020
Open Carry of Firearms at Polling Places on Election Day Prohibited
In Michigan, an individual’s ability to carry a firearm depends on several factors, such as whether he or she is licensed to carry a concealed weapon or is exempt from licensure; the location; whether the weapon is concealed or openly carried; and other circumstances.
The presence of firearms at the polling place, clerk’s office(s), or absent voter counting board may cause disruption, fear, or intimidation for voters, election workers, and others present. Absent clear standards, there is potential for confusion and uneven application of legal requirements for Michigan’s 1,600 election officials, 30,000 election inspectors, 8 million registered voters, and thousands of challengers and poll watchers on Election Day."


It seems the SOS is trying to skirt the law by unilaterally declaring that open carry "may cause disruption, fear, or intimidation" and implying that it constitutes a "breach of the peace." Even though I don't know of any problems or issues with thousands of 2A supporters OC'ing while voting for many years.

I believe in OC, I OC all the time on my bikes, and occasionally going about my normal activities but voting I have always CC'd. This year that is going to change and I'm going to OC to vote on November 3rd. We vote in a small rural community center and while I don't know the election officials we recognize them and I believe they remember us from election to election. It will be interesting to see what happens when I come in sporting a 1911 on my hip. The SOS is telling the inspectors to call the police.

My thanks to MGO, MOC and our 2A attorneys that are on top of this situation and are pushing for a ruling or injunction before aggressive law enforcement officers start arresting us at the polls."

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2020, 12:14:21 AM »
Pond Scum, wear/carry an audio recorder when you vote.

There is a lawsuit over this.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2020, 08:50:05 AM »
Pond Scum, wear/carry an audio recorder when you vote.

There is a lawsuit over this.

I'm thinking audio on a necklace, iPhone video in a shirt pocket, or maybe something more inconspicuous.
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B089MCDRFY/

Because police would never seize your phone and delete video of themselves committing crimes...
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline MI_XD

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2020, 11:51:49 AM »
I too will be open carrying, as I have for YEARS when voting...
Of course will have recorder going, and copies of the pertinent MCL excerpts.
I plan to call the Township Supervisor to see if there will be any problems with me voting how I have for years.....
MI_XD
SW Michigan
I finally can be Proud of America, again!

Offline MI_XD

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2020, 11:53:30 AM »
Oh, and glad to see posts here.... not ALL of us have Facistpalm......
MI_XD
SW Michigan
I finally can be Proud of America, again!

Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2020, 09:53:25 PM »
gryphon, good thoughts on the audio recording!  I'll do that! 

I'm thinking audio on a necklace, iPhone video in a shirt pocket, or maybe something more inconspicuous.
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B089MCDRFY/

I don't know of any laws against audio recording but I do believe that pictures and videos in the polling location are banned.  If the police confront me outside maybe I can get Sue to video it for me.  Unfortunately Sue is dead set against me OC'ing to vote so I could be dead before the election and then I'll vote for Biden!   :yikes:  Or I might just be in trouble .... but I've been married 26 years so I'm used to being in trouble!   ;D

Offline PDinDetroit

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2020, 02:01:10 AM »
As to the "intimidation claims" from the MI SOS...

Quote from: MSP Legal Update #86
Brandishing firearms MCL   750.234e   provides   that   it   is   a   90-day   misdemeanor for a person to knowingly brandish a firearm in public.  Brandishing is not defined in Michigan    law    and    there    are    no    reported    Michigan  cases  that  define  the  term.    Attorney General  Opinion  No.  7101  provides  guidance  and states, “A person when carrying a handgun in  a  holster  in  plain  view  is  not  waving  or  displaying  the  firearm  in  a  threatening  manner.    Thus,    such    conduct    does    not    constitute    brandishing a firearm

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

The MI AG Opinion that closes down this shenanigans: https://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10176.htm

As for trespass, MCL 600.1825 covers that misdemeanor.

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2020, 10:29:33 AM »
Detroit Spews weighs in on the lawsuits. "Serial litigant Robert Davis" - no bias here, nosiree.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/23/open-carry-ban-gun-groups-lawsuit-sos-benson/5997584002/

Tuesday deadline on written briefs, what are the odds of a timely decision which isn't going to be appealed/stayed on the 2nd?

"The feedback I’ve been getting from our police agencies is that they’re uncomfortable trying to enforce something they clearly don’t have the authority to enforce," said Robert Stevenson, director of the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police. “Our hope is that this will get resolved and there’ll be some clear guidance.

Attorney General Dana Nessel said Michigan State Police troopers would intercede in locations where local police refused to enforce the ban.

When was Nessel appointed Comandante of State Police?
I thought Col Joe Gasper was the one to decide whether to deploy Troopers on a mission like this.

About video: is the ban on video in the building, or video at the voting booth?
Is there an exemption for preservation of evidence of unlawful acts?
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2020, 11:59:31 AM »

About video: is the ban on video in the building, or video at the voting booth?
Is there an exemption for preservation of evidence of unlawful acts?

I had read about it a week ago.  Here is a quick google:

You can take picture of your ballot.  Read the bottom about other restrictions:  https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127--496902--,00.html

Page 39:  https://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/XI_Election_Day_Issues_266009_7.pdf

Offline PDinDetroit

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2020, 12:35:15 PM »

Offline MI_XD

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2020, 05:02:00 PM »
Just saw that WE WON!!!!!

CARRY ON!   (at  the Polls!)
MI_XD
SW Michigan
I finally can be Proud of America, again!

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2020, 05:57:21 PM »
Even the Detroit News called Benson a would-be monarch.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/editorials/2020/10/16/michigan-secretary-state-benson-cant-rewrite-gun-laws/3683668001/
https://www.dailypress.net/opinion/editorial/2020/10/michigan-secretary-of-state-benson-cant-write-state-gun-laws/

So the AG's office believes if we can open carry at the polls we'll kidnap Gretchen there?
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Judge-hears-challenge-to-Election-Day-ban-on-15679022.php

ED WHITE, Associated Press
Updated: Oct. 27, 2020 2:38 p.m.

DETROIT (AP) — A judge on Tuesday blocked a sudden ban on the open display of guns near Michigan polling places on Election Day.

Judge Christopher Murray acted just a few hours after hearing a challenge from gun-rights groups. They said Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, a Democrat, had exceeded her authority this month in banning people from openly carrying guns within 100 feet (30.48 meters) of polling places.

Critics argued that Benson failed to go through a formal rule-making process as required under state law. Murray agreed.

Compliance “is no mere procedural nicety,” the judge said. “Instead, our appellate courts have repeatedly emphasized the importance of the democratic principles embodied in the (law), which requires notice and an opportunity to be heard on the subject under consideration.”

Earlier in the day, Assistant Attorney General Heather Meingast said lawmakers have given secretaries of state discretion to set certain election rules. She said Benson acted after authorities recently busted up an alleged plot to kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

You expect the three queens to give up? Never:
Attorney General Dana Nessel, a Democrat, pledged to appeal Murray's decision with just days left until the election.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline Pond Scum

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2020, 06:19:38 PM »
WooHoo! Thanks to all the folks that helped get this ruling!  Lots of smart people on our side!   :)

Still the dance continues as the "Three Queens" say they will file an appeal and spend more taxpayer dollars.  I contend that Benson's directive is a felony for trying to intimidate me when going to vote and is also inciting others to commit violence against me at the polling location. 

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2020, 08:17:34 PM »
I contend that Benson's directive is a felony for trying to intimidate me when going to vote and is also inciting others to commit violence against me at the polling location.

Queen Dana l was quoted as saying she would order state troopers to commit violence against you if you exercise your rights.
That sounds like a step or two above inciting.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 11:31:00 AM by CitizensHaveRights »
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline MI_XD

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2020, 10:29:56 AM »
WooHoo! Thanks to all the folks that helped get this ruling!  Lots of smart people on our side!   :)

Still the dance continues as the "Three Queens" say they will file an appeal and spend more taxpayer dollars.  I contend that Benson's directive is a felony for trying to intimidate me when going to vote and is also inciting others to commit violence against me at the polling location.

I totally agree with that sentiment!
And THANKS to those working on this case!
MI_XD
SW Michigan
I finally can be Proud of America, again!

Offline CitizensHaveRights

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2020, 02:25:18 PM »
We win in the Court of Appeals, but the Red Queens will never give up...and Robert Davis is still a "Serial Litigant" (if he were genuinely a vexatious litigant, he'd sue the propagandists every time they called him that).

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/29/appeals-court-upholds-halt-bensons-open-carry-ban-michigan-polls/6067966002/

The Michigan Court of Appeals has denied Attorney General Dana Nessel's appeal of a lower court decision that halted Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson's open carry ban at polling places, but Nessel immediately appealed to the Michigan Supreme Court.

While the briefs filed in the case raise "legitimate concerns," the Michigan Legislature already has given the state "important and necessary tools to prevent voter intimidation," according to the unanimous decision by a three-judge panel.


There already is a law that bans voter intimidation and another that prohibits the brandishing of a firearm in public, the judges noted.


The Michigan State Police opted not to join Nessel's appeal to the Court of Appeals and  Michigan Supreme Court and instead will comply with state Court of Claims Judge Christopher Murray's original preliminary injunction.


I guess that answers my question as to when Nessel became the Commandante of the State Police.
"A well balanced breakfast being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed "  - Who has a right to keep and eat food, The People or A Well Balanced Breakfast?

Offline gryphon

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Re: Open carry for poll watchers
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2020, 08:53:26 PM »